Thread: Electrics & Plumbing - What Am I Allowed To Do?

Originally Posted by Tas_Dean

And he certainly wouldn't have touched the wires. Treat them all as if they are live!

A hot neutral is a danger on light switches also.

The light up pens, whilst they are reasonable, I would not trust my life to one.

I wouldn't touch it to test it. I was just being a wanker.

So, even with the entire house dead, and the pen registering it as dead, you'd still fiddle about trying to get the wires in the terminals without ever touching the exposed wires ? ...

Not having a go......... just curious........all electricians do that as well ? fiddle about all day long worrying about touching exposed wires after that kind of certainty ?

Originally Posted by apricotripper

I wouldn't touch it to test it. I was just being a wanker.

So, even with the entire house dead, and the pen registering it as dead, you'd fiddle about awkwardly with, what, plyers only (like one in each hand) trying to get the wires in the terminals without ever touching the wires ? ...

Not having a go......... just curious........all electricians do that as well ?

LOL, same as all electricians go through the entire house and count the GPO's on a circuit with a multimeter before changing a single over to a double!

Funny, isnt it, a homeowner can stick a balcony up at the back of their place without a chippie, stack 40 drunk people on it, and alls rosey, but stuff me, pulling out the red and black wire and putten back in a new switch instantly burns your little baby alive, and lands you in jail for 3 life terms!

Good thing those americans and poms and New Zealanders are so much smarter than us Aussies..............

Originally Posted by Cauterise

4. In some cases blue wires are not negative/neutral (ever heard of blue phase Boban?) you may not have broken the law by posting that, but if humans were still dependant on the food chain, you'd go hungry.

Yes, but you know I was talking about single phase and was making a point about what could be discussed and further that education was the key. It was merely an example I used to make a point. That view however might not be as convenient to your criticism however.

And just as you like being smart, is the blue phase (a bright blue) found in the company of the brown active, or is it found in the company of the white and red phases.

I think you have proved my point about people just waiting for something to jump on.

I think you should play the ball. Not that I even understand what you mean by that food chain statement.

Having read the balance of your post, it appears that we are in agreement about getting the correct information. As I've said before and you've repeated, its readily available from Standards Australia.

The funny thing is, I don't even need to do my own electrical nor do I have to pay for having someone do it.

I don't know why I even bother posting on this forum. Perhaps I'm being a big girl, but someone should just ban me and put me out of my misery. See ya.

Originally Posted by wonderplumb

Having a mate who was a sparky or not, it would be a sparky employed to do the work that was required of him...

...done at "mate's rates", and at a time convenient to yourself.

$200 a week for a 1st year apprentice is the harsh reality of it, always has been and if your 16, living at home with mum and dad paying the bills, doing your washing, wiping your backside still then why not do a trade? I believe it comes down to a lack of willingness to do a bit of hard work combined with the lure of big dollars in administrative and IT work that shies kids away from doing trades these days.

But the point I was making is that an apprenticeship is the ONLY way you can become a sparky, so who else other than a 16 yr old living at home can afford to do it? At 35 with a wife, two kids and a mortgage, I certainly couldn't. Why shouldn't you be able to do a Tafe course to perform limited tasks such as running wiring, fitting light switches and GPO's, to then get it inspected by a licenced inspector?

As far as I understood, owner builders had to do a course of some description, still had to employ a chippie, a brickie, a sparky, a plumber, a roof tiler, a waterproofer, a wall/floor tiler, a plasterer, a glazier, a concretor, a cabinet maker, a carpet layer etc. etc. and the final result of a permanent dwelling still has to pass the councils final inspection.........

A mate of mine has recently moved into a house that he and his wife built from scratch by filling out an application form to owner build, and the only help they had was with the final architectural drawings, the external frame (all internal walls done themselves), bricklaying and the roof tiles. The plumbing and electrics were done by the wife's qualified brothers and everything else was done by themselves. (She's an accountant and He's in IT. No course, no qualifications.)

Does every one who changes his own brake pads mic. up their discs to see if they are within acceptible tolerances? Machine theyre discs/shoes if necessary? Check wheel bearings/tie-rod ends/balljoints while its jacked up? Know how to carry out these checks? Know how to read tyre wear for signs of underlying front-end problems? Know the correct tyre pressures to run on?

No, no, no, no, no, & no... but the point I was making here was the fact that you DON'T have to be qualified to perform Mechanical work at home and you have just as much chance of killing someone by a dodgy brake or suspension overhaul as the dodgy wiring.

Last time I checked, a trailer with a load capacity of 4500kg needed to be towed behind a truck with an aggregate weight rating of around 11,000kg, a trailer of such capacity would have to go through stringent scrutineering, the details of which Im not sure of, before it was allowed to even be parked on the road. Not something you could knock up out of a bit of steel from bunnies and a few trailer bits from supercrap over a box of stubbies with a few mates on a sunday arvo.

Check again! You might be the plumber, but I'm the trailer specialist.
The regulations for building small trailers here in Australia are a National code for doing so and are applicable for trailers with a GVM of 1 to 4500kg. The only item that requires an Australian Standard is your coupling, and your drawbar is supposed to be able to cope with longitudinal and lateral stresses calculated from the carrying capacity. I say "supposed to", because as long as it looks like it might do the job, there is no test done for it, and it will usually pass registration. Unless you've made it from Balsa wood... but Hey, there's nothing in the reg's to say you can't!

The national regulations for towing trailers is 1.5 times the unladen weight of the tow vehicle (or the manuf'rs maximum), so you'd only need a 3000kg tow vehicle with the right tow hitch (A 90's model Discovery can tow 4000kg and an 80/100 series L/Cruiser 3500kg).

Joe Blow can build you a trailer in his own back shed, with no experience and no welding skills, he buys his axles with brakes, spring set and coupling from a trailer parts supplier rated to do the job, and that trailer can be registered up to 4500kg with little or no problem at all! And certainly no scrutineering other than to see if the lights work.

Originally Posted by Tas_Dean

Correct regarding appliances, incorrect regarding caravans. Electrical wiring for relocatable premises (including caravans and tents) carries it's own standards - AS3001:2001. Must be done by a licensed electrician and a certificate of compliance must be attached to the relocatable premises. Caravan parks can refuse to supply a power connection without the certificate, and registration can be refused without the certificate also.

I stood corrected earlier and I'll stand again. "AS3001:2001" The course I did was prior to 2000 and as I understand now the regulation has been tightened, and the loophole closed.

But aren't we getting away from the original question of "What am I allowed to do?"

The simple answer is N-O-T-H-I-N-G-

No matter how much we debate it, as fun and enjoyable as it is, and how ridiculous some of us think the laws are, the fact of the matter is you're not supposed to touch it...
...the prosecution rests your Honour.

Despite this, I have seen any answers to the question some of us are asking about the difference between a sparky changing a fitting, and a competent D.I.Y'er changing the same fitting using all the due care and attention it requires.

Originally Posted by Yonnee

The simple answer is N-O-T-H-I-N-G-

No matter how much we debate it, as fun and enjoyable as it is, and how ridiculous some of us think the laws are, the fact of the matter is you're not supposed to touch it...
...the prosecution rests your Honour.

.

Like hell it does.

Doesn't rest because people break it and will always break it. And there motivated to do it. Cause tradesman generally are a rip off......' I deeeserve the money ! cause, unlike everyone else.........I had to live at home with my mum,,,,and endure her having to wash me skid marks off during my apprenticeship.....and her great cooking. Probably the healthist time of my life, be gee it was hard !'

If you don't want people to break it, you better group together and push for more enforcement. Uno, a serious chance of getting caught and maybe some jail time. . Don't like your chances but goodluck. First might be a good idea to try and make it illegal for electrical parts to be purchased by anyone else but an electrician.

And they're motivated to do it.

And by all you blokes who tell them it's ok, they wont get caught and they wont kill themselves!

It's not a matter of whether I want people to break the law or not. Already told you, I don't give a rats what you do. I think it's irresponsible to encourage people on a public forum to break the law, which is what you are doing.

Originally Posted by Sturdee

My electrician friend was recently called out to check and finish of a job after some wiring work had been done by the homeowner.

He saw that some of that wiring was behind plaster and some in conduits, because he couldn't see and inspect all the wiring he refused and quoted on replacing all the wiring already done by the homeowner.

As his quote wasn't accepted he reported the matter to the Office of Electrical Safety, as he was required to do, and the same day the power company disconnected the supply because of illegal wiring.

A full and complete inspection and certification by an electrician was required to get the power back on. Hence no cost savings.

Peter.

..and JUST HOW is THAT inspection going to happen if electrcians like your friend cannot see or inspect the wires?

...if an electrician did the wiring in the same way does that mean it is ok?

There are "cowboys" in every industry and the electrical trade is NOT exempt.

I have been told, though have not witnessed, that electricians now just chase the wall and insert the cable directly WITHOUT conduit. I do not know how true this is.

Hi

A PRIME example of a "COWBOY" electrcian occurred at my place some years ago.

We had garden lighting installed in the front garden. The lights were powered by a very large 240 > 12v transformer.

The landscape gardener doing the garden and the lights employed a FULLY QUALIFIED and LICENSED to install the wiring to the new lights.

The electrician moved a sliding window shutter so that he could install the wiring through flexible conduit to the "potable" (ie buried underground) transformer. I came over to see the progress and instantly saw his error! He then tried to moved the shutter back. Ahhh? the window shutter hits the conduit Mistake number 1, though not dangerous.

The SAME FULLY QUALIFIED and LICENSED electrician installed a sensor to actrivate the garden lights at night time.

The sensor does require THREE wires. Active, neutral and the trigger wire that powers on the potable transformer. (No earth connection required as the sensor is double insulated)

Did he (the FULLY QUALIFIED and LICENSED electrician) run two red wires and a black wire? NO WAY! Why on earth (pardon the pun) would he run wires like that when he has a perfectly capable three core mains cable He could then use the red and black to power the sensor and run the return power throught the THIRD cable - it DIDN'T MATTER TO HIM that the third cable is coloured GREEN AND YELLOW!!!

Not only did he (the FULLY QUALIFIED and LICENSED electrician) do this ILLEGAL wiring, he DELIBERATELY went to great lengths to HIDE this illegal connection. Mistake?? number 2, DEADLY

Hmmm? I wonder why I treat some tradespeople with contempt. It is and has been a well known fact around here (and I assume elsewhere) that GOOD tradespeople, of ANY trade, are very hard to find.

All too often I find that any tradespeople that I use - usually because of my own time constraints - have to be watched or monitored to make sure they do their job properly. It is NOT just me that feels this need, all my neighbours feel the same, they cannot just expect the job to be done properly otherwise!

Yet another example of poor tradesman ...

I have a 6 > 10m extension ladder that I occasionally "break out" to trim a tall garden palm. It's a PITA to drag it out and extened it up to about 8-9m to trim the palm. I also find it difficult to access some of the palm leaves without taking down and again putting up the ladder.

I am slow at pruning the palm as I only use a small pull saw. I get the job done, but I detest doing it.

I succumbed this time (without protest ) to using the same "tree guy" that was doing my neighbours palms. He seemed to do a good job. However a week or two later he had to come back. He did NOT cut the seed pods properly and had "knicked" one of the palm leaves with his chainsaw and this leaf was now hanging down

The list goes on.....

I therefore STILL advocate that *IF* you can do it yourself and have the knowledge and capability then YOUR work could very easily be better than these so called "tradespeople" (tardypeople?).

No-one is saying that every trademan that holds a license is on the ball. I'd be the last person to say that - especially after the Cowboy thread I posted a couple of weeks ago.

There are also plenty of unlicensed Cowboys running around. I bet a lot of them think they are pretty good at fixing things, too. I used to meet a few of them when I was renting in Sydney.

As far as I can tell, no-one has argued that the work of a DIYer might not possibly be better than the work of some licensed tradies.

But your *IF* is a pretty big one. How do you know that you have the knowledge? You might think you do, but how do you know you do? If you haven't done the training and sat the exams, how do you know you know? People keep saying that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Maybe your knowledge is 20 years out of date and based on half understood theory and watching bad tradesmen. Have you read the wiring standards? Have you read the testing and inspection standard?

Originally Posted by MrFixIt

Hi

He could then use the red and black to power the sensor and run the return power throught the THIRD cable - it DIDN'T MATTER TO HIM that the third cable is coloured GREEN AND YELLOW!!!

Not only did he (the FULLY QUALIFIED and LICENSED electrician) do this ILLEGAL wiring, he DELIBERATELY went to great lengths to HIDE this illegal connection. Mistake?? number 2, DEADLY

I'd just like to piont out that it is not illegal to use the third core in the cable as long as the core is sleeved with an appropriate colour (usually red, white or any active colour heat shrink) at either end.

Originally Posted by Yonnee

Check again! You might be the plumber, but I'm the trailer specialist.
The regulations for building small trailers here in Australia are a National code for doing so and are applicable for trailers with a GVM of 1 to 4500kg. The only item that requires an Australian Standard is your coupling, and your drawbar is supposed to be able to cope with longitudinal and lateral stresses calculated from the carrying capacity. I say "supposed to", because as long as it looks like it might do the job, there is no test done for it, and it will usually pass registration. Unless you've made it from Balsa wood... but Hey, there's nothing in the reg's to say you can't!

The national regulations for towing trailers is 1.5 times the unladen weight of the tow vehicle (or the manuf'rs maximum), so you'd only need a 3000kg tow vehicle with the right tow hitch (A 90's model Discovery can tow 4000kg and an 80/100 series L/Cruiser 3500kg).

Joe Blow can build you a trailer in his own back shed, with no experience and no welding skills, he buys his axles with brakes, spring set and coupling from a trailer parts supplier rated to do the job, and that trailer can be registered up to 4500kg with little or no problem at all! And certainly no scrutineering other than to see if the lights work.

Sorry mate I stand corrected I was on a different train of thought in reference to trailers................
Just for the record Im not here taking personal shots at anyone, Im not trying to keep certain trades a "closed shop" but am merely trying to state the fact that its illegal, and if Tafe wants to run a course so you can do basic wiring or water plumbing, PROVIDED its inspected by an INSPECTOR from the respective authorities then by all means gun it. Its just a shame that theres heroes out there that Think they know it all and go ahead and do such jobs, and I have seen some pretty nasty work done by these types of people with some costly results.

Originally Posted by silentC

And by all you blokes who tell them it's ok, they wont get caught and they wont kill themselves!

It's not a matter of whether I want people to break the law or not. Already told you, I don't give a rats what you do. I think it's irresponsible to encourage people on a public forum to break the law, which is what you are doing.

Meeeee !........how bout Yooooooooou !....... A few pages back you encouraged the public to jaywalk !.....remember ..... tut tut. have you no shame ? you of alllll people.

You've probably killed someone already. Some blokes probably read your thoughts on jaywalking and instead of crossing properly at zebra crossings like he'd always done, has jaywalked instead, and been cleaned up by a bus ! goodness gracious.