Thread: Installing cooktop - do I need an electrician - and if so why?

Originally Posted by rrich

We call them that too but we also have a powerpoint. It's just a cigarette lighter with a higher ampere fuse. In my truck I use a powerpoint with a solid state converter to produce 120V at 100-150 Watts. The manufacturer suggests a 30 ampere fuse in the powerpoint electrics. The mathematics says that the converter should be pulling 10 amperes but I expect only 50-60% effiency.

Decent inverters run at around 80%+ efficiency, although a cheap MSW (modified square wave ) type is probably running a massive iron-cored transformer and a crappy chopper circuit, so your efficiency guess may well be correct. As an aside, Fronius grid-connected solar power inverters (no transformer, purely electronic) claim 97% efficiency, which ain't bad in anyone's books.

Hen
I am curious about the statistics used in your last post ( I know you personally can't vouch for them) but within the electricity supply industry there is a very very low incedence of deaths. The last ones in NSW that I'm aware of which were attributed to electricity was in Sydney in 1995 where a cable jointer pierced a cable which should of been isolated. The one previous to this was in Newcastle in 1993 where a cherry-picker's external hydraulic lines contacted HV lines, blew a hole in the line and sprayed the basket occupants with hydraulic oil which subsequently caught fire. Hardly an electrocution but still attributed to electricity.

When compared to the construction industry as a whole (including electricians) where the current figures being touted are 1 death every week (all deaths). The usual for death by electrocution is some idiot driving a spud bar into underground cable because he didn't dial before dig. Whilst attributed to electrocution, should have no validity in whether a skilled person installs there own wiring.

Bloody statistics - I get sick of people or organisations twisting them for their own benefit.

int 9000- legendary piece of info there - well done - its nice to see that some govt's consider the wider good of the community when they make regulations and laws.

It seems pretty clear (unsurprisingly) that the mushroom principle results in unknowledgeable people getting hurt due to lack of available knowledge. Maybe its about time that a state freed things up, allowing tafe's to provide some coursework on household electrical, and while they are at it - plumbing as well.

Originally Posted by pharmaboy2

Maybe its about time that a state freed things up, allowing tafe's to provide some coursework on household electrical, and while they are at it - plumbing as well.

Dream on

The State Labour Government would be too worried about all the votes it would lose from all those plumbers and electricians (the d#%kheads just don't realise that they have already lost them). I mean, you can't imagine that a government would be concerned with the welfare of the populace when their term in office could be longer.

Ashore,
I once had a physics instructor that for a bonus question on a quiz asked:

Express the speed limit (65 Miles per hour) in furlongs per fortnight.

174720.

rrich , but did you get it right , I have met a few americans and up until now had not met one that knew what a fortnight was

Oh and the answer could alse be 174712 or 174728 if daylight saving time was started or removed during the fortnight

Rgds

Originally Posted by Ashore

Oh and the answer could alse be 174712 or 174728 if daylight saving time was started or removed during the fortnight
Rgds

LOL!

65 miles * 5280 feet / 660 feet = 520 furlongs
14 days * 24 hours = 336 hours per fortnight

520 * 336 = 174720 Furlongs per Fortnight
or
Change to DST (loss of hour by moving clock ahead) 174200
Change back to standard time (Moving clock backwards gains an hour) 175240

But what if we started measuring in metric and round off errors and then conversion back to imperial and we didn't include gas mileage..... ^&^%*$^%$(*) Oops, my calculator just had a serious melt down.

int9000 excellent piece.

I have nothing to add.

I am sorry to keep this thread alive (as it really does deserve a quick death) but...

Originally Posted by lnt9000

Well after that what can you say?, the proof is in the pudding!!!

1) The study you mention does not have any external reference for verification.
2) The points in the study are just bizzare and in no way can <b>anything</b> be inferred from it. e.g.

Originally Posted by lnt9000

Now Northern Ireland is an extremely turbulent society. Yet by the German and New Zealand comparative studies, Northern Ireland is the only country with higher levels of electrical fatalities than Australia! The Australian statistics reflect the gross irresponsibility of the great Aussie tradition of allowing powerful vested interest groups to "regulate" themselves.

What does the fact that Northern Ireland being 'turbulent' have on electrical fatalities? What are Protestant electricians dangerously wiring up Catholic social clubs/businesses/homes? Following on we now have a comparison of this Irish 'fact' with the New Zealand and German experiences to provide a grand answer, which is that "The Australian statistics reflect the gross irresponsibility of the great Aussie tradition of allowing powerful vested interest groups to "regulate" themselves." Seems like a big leap from the original Northern Ireland experience, but it could be because of the bumpy ride.

In no way can general rules be applied from so co-called studies that quote no real facts just simple electrocution data. For example the Dutch and continental European experience may be due to damage after WWII causing updating of most electrical installations in the country, major changes in standards, electrical harmonization issues, general social norms (e.g. they respect their tradies more and let them do everything, their tradies are relatively cheap, people don't like to get their hands dirty etc.)
I know that in Greece (as I am Greek) that their building codes include a lot of anti-seismic codes as half of Europe's sesmic activities occur there. As they build using steel-reinforced concrete (even for residential) then all electrical cable is through conduit that is layed in the concrete at the time of building. Suffice to say that working on electrical stuff buried in reo can be a trifle hard for the lay person. Now I am sure others could come up with more and more points.

4) Point 9 is wrong at least in NSW. I wont go into the details, but is why many Electrical engineers at least in NSW have gotten their (limited) licence. In NSW it actually be a bit difficult to be accepted into the bridging course now, as most universities don't offer the <i>power strand</i> in electrical engineering, (or any strands for that matter) which is a prerequisite for being accepted into the course. As I have a friend doing this course I can assure you that there are 'techniques' in getting in. Enough said on this point (at least for now).

5) I have been personally involved (for over 6 years) in supervising an introduction to safety module for young engineers at annual orientation camp that a university in Sydney runs for recent school leavers. I wont mention the name of the university so that don't get in an possible legal trouble. In this module we go through a real life case-study of an electrocution from the files of the old Workcover, and get the students to form pairs and wire up a simple extension lead, with one person wiring the plug the other the socket.
In all my time taking approximately 200/300 people per year through this exercise I have only ever had 1 group! pass the relevant australian standard. i.e 2 people out of 1200+! Even though it might seem easy from the instructions gioven on the back of the packs, there are a lot of little 'tricks'. e.g. The standard states that there is an actual right end of the cable to stick the plug and socket so that the active and neutral wires do not physically cross over. The instructions do not say this. Other points for compliance include:
Not a <b>single</b> copper strand may be cut, nicked, bent or damaged. The <b>exact</b> correct length of insulation must be cut off from the inner wires and outer flex, no damage to the insulation is allowed, cord locking ferrule must be in place, wires locked secured over the mechanical locking tabs (can't remember their exact proper names) etc...
You would be amazed at the simple mistakes people can make. Just letting them loose with instructions, wire, plug and socket, screwdriver and Stanley knife can be physically dangerous, forgetting the electrical and mechanical mistakes they do with the wiring (almost all damage their insulation or inner conductor in some manner). It can be amazing to just watch them trying to cut the wire. Even after explaining to them how to cut the wire and to not place body parts in the cutting vicinity, it is amazing how many use their legs or another hand as a backing support.:eek:<br>
At least no one has chopped an artery on my watch. I wouldn't want to fill in the forms.<br>
What I am trying to say is that it a very bad to assume that everyone should be allowed to do electrical work. Standards exist for a reason. They are a PITA to read, especially the electrical ones as they come in a great family of related ones (probably to make more money as the electrical ones I have read are quite small for the price I think, and you always seem to need a few to answer even a quite basic question). Going back on track the fact that electricians seem to be getting it wrong (from the postings on this topic) should be more a reason to limit electrical work so that only competent people can do the work. Speaking for myself I think the bigger problem is the quality (and the cost ) of the electrical work that electricians do. If they really did their job well then I don't think there would be that many complaints, but they do seem from my own (personal) experience not to have enough (practical) experience.

Maybe they need to be retrained periodically. I don't know for sure, but it can be dangerous to let anyone just muck around, or maybe another class of licence should be introduced that allows you to just change power points and switches, and leave all other work to another higher class of licencees.

Anyway good night/morning please don't take this in a bad manner.

Take care

Originally Posted by Ashore

Must agree 100% , on a ship I am qualified to handle all electrical work , from 3.3KV to 10 volt and all in between, have worked on breakers and power generation systems big enough to power a town .
Plus the electronics , all the accomodation wireing , dealt with dc power generation and motors, approved as a lecturer regarding ships electrics, and yet am not allowed to change a three pin plug at home,
Some of the so called qualified people I have seen work and others I have had to employ I would have sacked at sea
It's a closed shop like plumbing but I think there should be a weeks course type thing to allow you to gain a limited licence to undertake certain limited work on your own Home.

Same with me, im an aircraft eleco dealing with 415v with large current draws ( in the hundreds), but its near impossible too obtain a occupy's licence anymore

Geno

The unfortunate thing is that a small percentage of tradesmen have ruined what I would call a rather skilled trade. My first piece of advice would be ask friends if they know of a Sparky they could reccomend.......if anything goes wrong with your new stove/rangehood etc you will void any warranty that you had if completed by you.

My next thought is ......"if you have to ask you should steer clear of the installation", but I am unaware of your skill or competence. At the end of the day spakies carry all the responsibility and pay hefty insurance premiums and contractor license fees to do such work.

Just a quick mention, it's not the voltage that kills.....it's the current. Many people think oh its only 240v, but if you have ever been electrocuted and lived to tell the tale you will certainly gain a very healthy respect for it. Just remember its milliamps...not single didgit amps that will kill you.


There are many factors to take into consideration before this installation.

1. Does the unit require an isolating switch?
2. Position of switch in kitchen.
3. Correct cable size.
4. Testing of installation.
5. Termination of cables and any joints etc.
6. Circuit load.
7. Correct choice of circuit breakers/switches.
8. Understanding the importance of earthing to appliances etc.
9. AS3000 & AS3018:2001
10. Saftey, Safety, Safety.
.
At the end of the day these are just a few things to consider, just make sure whatever you decide you are safe and your family is safe.

Chris,
it's been about 15 months since Geno posted his question. I reckon he may have sorted it one way or another. 15 months isd a long time to eat takeaway/cold food & get nagged.

Mick

Hi guys,
Thanks for all the replies. I am now living in Belgium for three years (wife posted with Dept of Foreign Affairs) and it is quite relaxing letting somebody else maintain the house.

Anyway, I got the kitchen finished about 2 weeks after my post. I went "half-way" - I pulled the old oven out and got a sparkie to run the new conduit and wiring in. I then slotted the oven in and connected the wires he left to the appropriate connection points in the oven. Absolutely no problems and everything in the new kitchen is brill. BTW - I could have done it all myself, he did exactly what I would have done except he left crap (copper wire shards, insulation etc) all over the place. I wonder if they do this in their own homes? Cost was about $80 for 40 minutes which is a bit steep for mine but he has mouths to feed and possibly paid tax on the gig etc.

I agree with Purse and Ashore. As an ex-marine engineer I was responsible for all generation and distribution systems for some pretty high powered equipment since the majority of vessels that I sailed (mostly AC and some DC) on did not carry dedicated electricians.
I always remember hooking up light globes to live 440V busbars at the back of the switchboard after the synchroscope transformer burnt out, so that we could get another generator on to the board to start a main air compressor approaching Panama Canal. We could not "black out" the vessel as we were in fairly congested waters, at night. It was interesting, as the vessel was moving about in heavy weather. Marine engineers will understand what I am talking about.

It really peeves me that I could spend all day working on the control system and contactors for a multi-speed, 100kW, 440V motor with 300Amp line fuses in each of the phases, and then come ashore and am not allowed to put a plug on the end of a cord.

There should be some way that people such as marine engineers (whose training and certification includes electrotechnology, both theory and practice) can get up to speed on things such as AS3000 and then take an examination or test, no mater how stringent) to obtain a restricted license to carry out their own electrical work.

Bill