Thread: 2011 Thompson Lathe Tools purchase

Originally Posted by Pat

Thommo's in the wild

Bowled over

Where's the Skew

Originally Posted by jefferson

But are there any Thompson users that reckon they are better than Hamlet 2060 or HT Kryos? Even our own P & Ns?

Pat, try to bring some down at Xmas so we can give 'em a workout. I've got some hardish stuff for the test......

Jeff, they have already booked their seat. Been playing with Yellow Box Burl as a test. These are the 10V version.

I've had softer concrete than this burl

Originally Posted by wheelinround

Bowled over

Where's the Skew

No skews for me

I reckon they are harder then the P&N

I'm basing this on my perception in honing a slightly dull chisel with a small diamond card file

The Thomo seems to take a bit more effort. But I could be having myself on

I have a number of Thompson tools and use them regularly. I also have P & N and Hamlet 2060 tools and also use them regularly. It appears to me that the Thompson tools are much better on "softer" timbers eg maple, silky oak and the like, and quite good on the harder species eg spotted gum, black bean and kwila. However the walnuts, black and especially yellow walnut will take the edge off fairly quickly. It is difficult to make quantitative, objective assessments, but in general I would give the Thompsons a thumbs up.
Jim

Originally Posted by powderpost

I have a number of Thompson tools and use them regularly. I also have P & N and Hamlet 2060 tools and also use them regularly. It appears to me that the Thompson tools are much better on "softer" timbers eg maple, silky oak and the like, and quite good on the harder species eg spotted gum, black bean and kwila. However the walnuts, black and especially yellow walnut will take the edge off fairly quickly. It is difficult to make quantitative, objective assessments, but in general I would give the Thompsons a thumbs up.
Jim

Good enough for me, thanks Jim.

I'll have to invest next time around.

Now that I have the Thompson 5/8" bowl gouge in both V10 and V15, I thought I would give them a test run to see if I could detect any difference between these two grades of PM-cryo treated steel.

First thing was to not read what anyone else has said on the topic. That way I could have a genuinely open mind on the topic.

First test was roughing down green blanks. I am currently working through some freshly cut green Native Cherry Pine. A medium density fine grained wood. Chose a set of 10" blanks with bark still attached.

Sharpened both gouges on the #120 Diamond wheel and turned until the gouges had to be pressed firmly to keep 'cutting', a point well beyond where I would normally go before resharpening. This way I had a distinct exhaustion point against which to measure the performance of the two steels. Both gouges went close to completing two bowls each in and out. I was unable to detect any difference in the performance of the two steels on this test.

Next test was on some 100 year old red gum fence posts. Hard and brittle with the usual quota of included dirt (sand). Blanks were about 8” diam. As I did not know how variable the red gum blanks were I changed the protocol and cut in 30 sec relays between the two steels. This way each steel encountered equal levels of hardness (and silica). Starting with a fresh grind on each gouge, I kept a stop watch tally of 30 sec cuts and only stopped to sharpen when the gouges stopped cutting. After two resharpening cycles the performance was again very close to a dead heat, the V15 coming in at an average run time of 2 min 30 sec before needing to be resharpened and the V10 just short of that. So close that for practical purposes I couldn't say with complete confidence that there was a clear winner. Maybe over time I will observe more durability in the 15V, but on this quick and ready test I can't say I did.

The other thing I did was to see if I could detect any difference in the 'sharpness' of the two steels. To the touch on the thumb after sharpening there was none. Nor could I detect any immediate difference in the quality of the initial cut after sharpening. Both were very good. I am hoping that the V15 may hold that initial really sharp state for longer, but as yet I haven't tested for that. If it does it will justify the 25% premium over the 10V, which is a great performer in its own right. If not, then I don't think I will be buying more V15.

Having completed my own little test and formed an opinion, I then looked to see if there were any views out there on the relative benefits of V15 over V10. I found the following comment from Bill Neddow, whose views I respect.

"There is a slight improvement in 'sharp edge time' with the 15V steels. I can see it because I production turn. The average hobbyist is going to really have to pay attention to see the difference."

Originally Posted by jefferson

But are there any Thompson users that reckon they are better than Hamlet 2060 or HT Kryos? Even our own P & Ns?

Jeff – I have P&Ns, Crown PM-Cryo and Thompsons, but no HT-Kryo or Hamlet 2060s. I find the Thompsons continue to cut for longer that the others and are ideal for roughing down and tough stuff, but doesn't keep that initial very sharp edge for as long as, for example, the Crown Ellsworth Sig gouge (with M2 not Pro-PM steel), which takes a very keen edge and is therefore my go to gouge for finishing cuts. It seems that the durability advantage that the Powder Metal (PM) gives to the gouge (allowing for a higher % of vanadium) has its limits in keeping that initial very sharp edge. Probably something to do with the difference in steel particle size. I guess in the same way that High Carbon steel takes an even shaper edge than HSS but does not last as long.

Thanks, Neil for a very detailed post.

I spent quite a few hours sharpening 2 P & N gouges plus a Hamlet APS 2060 late last week for a new turner.

The project was a simple platter out of quite hard salmon gum from WA. (The back was better than the front!)

While I didn't measure it, the Hamlet definitely out performed the P & Ns. I only wish the new turner was up to trying out my 12mm HT Kryo gouge, my only gouge in Irish or Ellsworth configuration. (All of my other gouges are sharpened on Jig setting 2 on the Tormek.) But I thought I'd keep things simple.

The PM treated gouges definitely have a place in my workshop. The big question is which breed is best for lasting the distance on the harder stuff. As I've already indicated, I try a few Thompsons next bulk-buy round or even earlier.

Another allied issue is sharpening. I seem to have more problems keeping a decent profile on the P & Ns (I reckon the flutes are uneven!). A quick fix on my blue wheel brings things back into shape though.

So, any sharpening issues on the Tormek with the Thompsons? Black and grey wheels. My experience says that the black wheel does the job far better than the grey wheel, especially on the PM treated steels.

Out of fairness I should add this link to the Tool Steel Comparison table in the Data Sheet by Crucible Industries, the maker of both CPM 10V and 15V, which indicates that 15V is at least 25% more 'Wear Resistant' than 10V.

That wasn't my experience, but your mileage might be different.

Thanks for the test info Neil. Interesting stuff. Raises the question of how Crucible arrived at that data.

For anyone who has a bunch of V10 tools I can recommend the Norton 3X wheel. Well outperforms white, pink and ruby alox wheels. Like a hot knife through butter. Mine is the #46 and the harder of the two bonds; K from memory. Despite the coarse grade the finish is good enough for my applications.

Jeff, reproducing the orig grind on the Ellsworth sig gouge on the Tormek is a PITA in my experience. With the mount bar in the horizontal position I can do most of it but not the full wings. Stops a bit short of the handle end. Position #6. Advice on the Tormek forum says it's doable with the mount bar in the vertical position ... but with a 60* bevel at the tip a light touch would be needed to avoid a dig in the wheel. I'm not game given the cost of the wheels and can get away without the full length of the wings.

Originally Posted by rsser

Raises the question of how Crucible arrived at that data.

.

I have no doubt that Crucible has used standardised testing to produce that data. They do indicate that:

"Results may vary with hardening method and section size. Salt or oil quenching will give maximum response. Vacuum or atmosphere cooling may result in up to 1-2 HRC points lower."

So, it may well be that Doug has used a different heat treatment regime for the 15V and 10V, which has brought the performance of the two closer together than the Crucible data indicates. Doug has produced 15V tools in the past, but dropped them due to the rising cost of 15V over 10V, which had priced the 15V out of the comfort zone of most woodturners. More recently he has found a way if bringing the cost of 15V tools down and that is why he is now offering the 15V tools again.

On the other hand, it could just be me. Afer all, it was a very subjective 'test' run that I did. Others may have a very different experience and/or perception.

Anyway, whatever is the case, I think Doug's CPM high vanadium tools are very good value for the money compared to the competition. For example, the Glaser Hitec tools that use the same Crucible co. steels are over twice the price (which does include their handles, want them or not). Their heat treatment may extract (or not) better wear resistance than Doug's, but not twice* as much!

I would buy and compare Vicmarc's new 10V gouges to see how they stack up, but at this stage they don't make them with a V flute profile and I'm not a big fan of the U profile, so that will have to wait until they bring out a V profile, that is if they ever do.

I must say I'm enjoying having three 5/8" gouges (my most used tool) to use in succession and then re-sharpen in batch mode. Far less disruptive while turning and much more efficient grinding them one after the other.

PS - Although I have been unable to detect any difference between my 5/8" 10v and 15V gouges from Doug, I have noticed quite a difference between his 3/4" 10V and 5/8" 10V gouges. The 3/4" is noticeably less durable than the 5/8" gouge. Perhaps the 'section size' effect referred to in Crucible's data sheet.

*PPS - I haven't used Glaser Hitec tools myself, so my comment are purely based on a price comparison and an observation that I haven't read of anyone with considerable woodturning experience who has used both Thompson and Glaser tools who is saying that Glaser is twice as good.

I had a Glaser but didn't have it at the same time as the Thompson tools nor put much mileage on it. Pat has it now.

Glasers made by Glaser and those branded as such by the operation that bought the IP may of course be different.

Originally Posted by rsser

I had a Glaser but didn't have it at the same time as the Thompson tools nor put much mileage on it. Pat has it now.

Glasers made by Glaser and those branded as such by the operation that bought the IP may of course be different.

Ern are you trying to talk me into getting a 3/8" Thommo for comparison

Do you need persuading Pat?

Frankly I'd guess that in the US much of the attraction (and the cost) of the Glaser gouges is the gorgeous handles. (I was completely immune of course ).

Originally Posted by rsser

Glasers made by Glaser and those branded as such by the operation that bought the IP may of course be different.

Good point, Ern.

Jerry Glaser was in a class of his own. Only time will tell if those who have revived the brand name are up to the high standards (and prices) he set.