Alternative grinds for woodturning

**NeilS** · 25th October 2009, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by rsser

I'm increasingly using swept back wings on my gouges; they offer more options for tool presentation and wood removal. In time I expect that only my bowl 'roughing gouge' will have a basic fingernail grind (or lady finger) and that's so it can be whacked on a simple grinder platform for a quick refresh.

By basic grind I mean what you get when you sharpen on a platform just rotating the shaft.

But there's still a good deal of difference between a distinct lady finger grind and an Irish or Ellsworth grind. One of the main virtues of the latter in my experience is that the relatively short bevel at the tip makes hollowing around the corner easy while giving you other cutting and scraping presentations with the wings.

The 'traditional' grind AFAIK when seen side on has all of the cutting edge perpendicular to the shaft. I've never used this but am told it makes it easier to start a hollowing cut.

All of ....

Most of my gouges are Ellsworth-like grinds. But have to be used very tangential to the bowl to get a good shear cut/scrape using the wings. This is one of the reasons that I do all of my bowl turning outboard.

The only 'basic' gouge grind I use is on my large P&N roughing gouge (for the same reason as Ern), but I do swing the handle out at the very end of the grind to round the tips over to reduce the chances of a catch.... which can be a bit specy when it happens with the big P&N rougher.

I have what could be called alternative grinds on a few specialist gouges that I use occasionally for specific tasks.

Also use an extreme form of negative rake on my most frequently used scrapers (sse post #9 here ).

.....

**rsser** · 25th October 2009, 01:48 PM

Yes, if I recall correctly, the P&N Supagouge has the upper parts of the flute straight or nearly so. That can give you a lot of cutting edge in contact with the wood and make it hard to control, so a bit of handle swing at the grinder will keep the edge convex.

I use the Thompson V gouge for roughing so don't finesse the edge or bevel geometry. It gets a lot of punishment taking off bark and embedded crud and a simple grind allows for a quick refresh.

**Edwards** · 29th October 2009, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by Tiger

I have used traditional grinds for my woodturning where for example when hollowing a box, I use a spindle gouge and then a scraper to clean the hollow out. At the Wood show, I saw Guilio with a Soren Berger ground tool that did a pretty impressive job of hollowing his boxes. The tool left little to sand. He also used a Cindy Drozda ground tool to good effect. Along with those grinds, I spoke to another turner who absolutely swears that the Ellsworth grind is the grind to use for faceplate work.

For those who have ventured into these alternative grinds, are they worth it? Do they have any limitations, ie work well for some timbers and not for others? Do you find they complement the traditional grinds? That's probably enough questions for now

.

Hi Tiger.
The Ellsworth grind on both spindle and bowl gouges is the only way to go if you want to improve your turning ability and just make turning easier.
The Ellsworth grind provides a lot more cutting edge on the tool which allows you to get into areas that are more difficult with a conventional grind. Its also much safer and reduces the chances of catches.
If you lay the tool over so that the cutting edge is lower than horizontal, then it becomes a wonderful shear scraper that cannot dig in. Use this method for your finishing cuts or edge detailing. If you have not previously tried this method then quickly have a go. Remember, cutting edge down.
I have a faithful 10mm spindle gouge, Ellsworth grind, which I use for everything from inside / outside finishing and fine detail work. In other words if I am having trouble getting the finish I require, turn to Ellsworth grind every time.
For average turners like we are, this is the best innovation since power sanding and adjustable chucks.
Good luck.

Cheers
Edwards

**Tiger** · 29th October 2009, 04:54 PM

**rsser** · 29th October 2009, 06:50 PM

Here we go with terminology probs again.

The Ellsworth grind as outlined by the man himself is a quite distinct grind for a bowl gouge with a specific flute shape. Elsewhere I've posted a copy of his notes on the various presentations of it. And yes, there's a bit of a learning curve with it.

**Jim Carroll** · 29th October 2009, 07:21 PM

Have to be care full what you call an elsworth grind.

You also have the Irish grind, the swept back grind and the fingernail grind all have subtle differences in the shape of the tool and the angles on the front and sides.

To the normall woodie they can all look very similar .

As Ern found some time ago he had trouble duplicating the elsworth grind on his trugrind jig { I think, ern can confirm} because of the difference in angles.

**rsser** · 29th October 2009, 09:04 PM

Yeah, wasn't the Trugrind but an earlier Oz unit that works in the same way. Prob was reproducing the full length wing (on an Ellsworth Signature gouge so I knew what it had to look like); angles were OK.

**Jim Carroll** · 29th October 2009, 09:42 PM

Heligrind or Uni grind

**TTIT** · 29th October 2009, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Carroll

Have to be care full what you call an elsworth grind.

You also have the Irish grind, the swept back grind and the fingernail grind all have subtle differences in the shape of the tool and the angles on the front and sides.

To the normall woodie they can all look very similar...................

Hmmmm

I wonder which one mine is (close to). I hadn't seen anything more than some pictures when I reshaped my 5/8" P&N until it worked the way I thought it should - still don't know if it's as good as it could be - but I do love it

. I might show it to and KenW tomorrow and see which one they reckon it resembles.

**Texian** · 30th October 2009, 02:57 AM

Have y'all seen this www.woodcentral.com/newforum/grinds.shtml?

**hughie** · 30th October 2009, 04:09 AM

Have y'all seen this www.woodcentral.com/newforum/grinds.shtml?

Tex,

A excellent link to a very descriptive section on gouge grinds

**rsser** · 30th October 2009, 07:16 AM

Vern, has his very own grind. Think it was Cliff who dubbed it 'the bird's beak'.

**Jim Carroll** · 30th October 2009, 08:45 AM

Vern this is why it is easier to say a swept back grind.

If you have seen Neil Scobies grind on a 1/2" P&N bowl gouge it has an almost verticle front then swept back from there.
It allows him to rotate the tool very easy in deep & narrow forms

But still just a swept back tool.

**NeilS** · 30th October 2009, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Carroll

Heligrind or Uni grind

The Helli-Grind did a good job on the P&N 'U' profile flute, which it was principally designed for, but it struggled with the Ellsworth/Irish flute profile. I had to adapt mine to get decent swept-back wings on the Ellsworth (jig adaption here).

.....

**rsser** · 30th October 2009, 03:28 PM

Thanks Neil.

That's the solution but what was the problem exactly?

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