Thread: Candles holders

I have often wondered about that as well.

Earlier today I was looking at some magazines and on the cover of one was a driftwood tea candle holder. Nothing more exciting than a few holes in the driftwood to place the candles, but it did make me think how safe this would be.

They might be good at a market, but would carry a considerable risk for the seller/maker I would have thought.

Interested to hear further.

Originally Posted by Sir Stinkalot

I have often wondered about that as well.

They might be good at a market, but would carry a considerable risk for the seller/maker I would have thought.

Thanks for your thoughts, I am more concerned about the Standards. I am sure we are all aware that a candle in a house can be dangerous and the risk of negating an insurance policy. But I want to get the real information, not the urban myths about the "potential risk" to a seller.

Thanks again for your comment.

Jim

Jimmie, there was once a law, in Queensland as far as I can remember that stated you had to have a metal barrier in candle sticks. I think Mobyturns may have some information about this. Hopefully he will chime in.
Rgds,
Crocy.

Originally Posted by Old Croc

Jimmie, there was once a law, in Queensland as far as I can remember that stated you had to have a metal barrier in candle sticks.Crocy.

Hi Crocy,

This issue comes up often. What I am trying to do is get some definitive information out for all to see. I have seen recently, where the Australian standards were not being met. I am sure you are aware of what I am trying to do.

Jim

I found some info here:

Combustible candle holders | Product Safety Australia

Candle holders and decorations that ignite from the heat of the candle are permanently banned from supply in Australia.

About the ban

The ban applies to objects that are designed to hold or decorate a candle, which when subjected to flame or heat emanating from a candle, ignite and continue to flame for a period of five seconds or more after ignition.

Complying with the ban

Consumer Protection Notice No. 12 of 2011 sets out the requirements of this ban.

Also some more stuff here: candle safety | ANZCAL

Industry standards

As part of its commitment to the safe enjoyment of candles and setting standards for product quality, safety and corporate responsibility, the Australia & New Zealand Candle Association Limited will be playing a leading role in the development of industry standards for candles and candle products in Australia and New Zealand.

Currently there are no national industry standards for candles in Australia or New Zealand. ANZCAL will be proactively encouraging for this to change. Until then, in addition to the candle safety rules that manufacturers provide, the ASTM candle standards will be used as a guide. The ASTM candle standards are applicable to the United States but they are often referenced or drawn upon by candle organisations and regulatory authorities worldwide.

Of interest would likely be:

Candle Accessories Standard (ASTM F-2601)
Reference title: Standard Specification for the Fire Safety for Candle Accessories
Effective Since: 2007
This standard sets forth specifications for the fire-safety manufacture, labeling and testing of candle accessories (e.g., candle rings, candle burners, candle holders).

Seems to be about $80 to purchase the standard from Sai Global.

Thanks Stinky,

That has been around for about 10 or so years I think. It refers to the actual article, eg. a candle holder with no barrier between the melted wax, flame and container. There is a lot not said there. As wood turners we need to know what we can do not what we can't do. What I am hoping for is some minimum specification, some thing like an Australian standard.

An interesting video, again it is interesting but not authoritive. YouTube My computer skills are minimal, sorry.

Again I am not trying to start WW3, just looking for some direction for all of us.

Jim

I've just searched the Australian Standards catalogue and there doesn't appear to be any standard produced by them relating to candles.

There is an American standard ASTM F-2601 but it's American and $50 so probably not relevant to Australian users.

I can't see anything under Queensland legislation either.

However...

There is a ban on combustible candle holders and decorations under the Competition and Consumer Act (Competition and Consumer Act 2010 - Consumer Protection Notice No. 12 of 2011 - Permanent ban on combustible candle holders).

What this all means?

Dunno.

There is an Australian and New Zealand Candle Association with some tips and guidance candle safety | ANZCAL but even those guys say there aren't any standards.

I think we're on our own.

Fire bad, tree pretty

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Redbeard

I've just searched the Australian Standards catalogue and there doesn't appear to be any standard produced by them relating to candles.

There is a ban on combustible candle holders and decorations under the Competition and Consumer Act (Competition and Consumer Act 2010 - Consumer Protection Notice No. 12 of 2011 - Permanent ban on combustible candle holders).

What this all means?

Dunno.

There is an Australian and New Zealand Candle Association with some tips and guidance candle safety | ANZCAL but even those guys say there aren't any standards.

I think we're on our own.

Fire bad, tree pretty

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk

Thanks for your input Redbeard, that is what I was afraid of. I have read a comment that "......... doesn't comply with the Australian standards". That sort of statement only exacerbates and creates all sorts of urban myths. The real issue is what can happen if a lit candle fall over, not with the candle itself????? That's a different story.

Thanks for your input any way.

Jim

Crocy is correct, I researched the compliance requirements for candle holders in 2011. There was a ban imposed on "commbustible candle holders" which was implemented to remove the hazards posed by imported "resin candle holders" which were popular at the time.

The hazard was the actual candle holder would catch fire when the candle was allowed to burn down to almost nothing. There is a "flammmability" standard / definitions about heating a material and its ability to sustain a flame in a set time period. Surprisingly some "wooden candle holders" would under the definition be considered to not be "combustible" - note some, not all. The inclusion of a metal "candle cup" in the "candle holders" design very significantly lowers the risk of the combustibility hazard, and imo is a mandatory feature.

Consumer alerts were issued Consumer Protection Notice #12 of 2011 and recalls were implemented for the "combustible" candle holder products.

Search "combustible candle holders" on the Product Safety Australia website.

I sought and received a response about the combustibility of wood turned wooden candle holders for myself. Their reply was helpful but marked as not for distribution / publication.

Note the penalty for an individual supplying a "commbustible candle holder" is approx $2000.

Originally Posted by powderpost

Thanks for your thoughts, I am more concerned about the Standards. I am sure we are all aware that a candle in a house can be dangerous and the risk of negating an insurance policy. But I want to get the real information, not the urban myths about the "potential risk" to a seller.

Thanks again for your comment.

Jim

Jim for small manufacturers the compliance costs and material / product testing means that it is unlikely that they can prove their products comply with the regulations, so falls in the "why bother" basket. The potential risk to the seller is an infringement notice approx $2000 for non-compliant products & if it proceeds to court up to $220k for an individual. Yet in every weekend market that I have visited there are vendors supplying "candle holders" that appear to me to be non-compliant with the permanent ban on "combustibile candle holders."

Originally Posted by Mobyturns

Jim for small manufacturers the compliance costs and material / product testing means that it is unlikely that they can prove their products comply with the regulations, so falls in the "why bother" basket. The potential risk to the seller is an infringement notice approx $2000 for non-compliant products & if it proceeds to court up to $220k for an individual. Yet in every weekend market that I have visited there are vendors supplying "candle holders" that appear to me to be non-compliant with the permanent ban on "combustibile candle holders."

Thanks Moby,

There is a reference to the CCCA about "combustable candle holders", in reply No. 6. That doesn't clarify what is a "minimum standard", that is why I started this thread. I have seen claims that "tea holders" do not comply with "Australian Standards", As far as I can ascertain, there is no "Australian Standard", relative to this issue and to make such a claim would be erroneous and miss leading. I do understand the dangers that exist with candles etc. but the that is a user issue. Many houses have been burnt down as a result of children not being adequately supervised, but that is a different matter. Matters of litigation are far beyond me., and is possibly an issue for another thread for people that know and understand the law.

Again I asked the question to help wood turners in general.

But, thanks for your input.

Jim

Jim

Originally Posted by powderpost

Thanks Moby,

There is a reference to the CCCA about "combustable candle holders", in reply No. 6. That doesn't clarify what is a "minimum standard", that is why I started this thread. I have seen claims that "tea holders" do not comply with "Australian Standards", As far as I can ascertain, there is no "Australian Standard", relative to this issue and to make such a claim would be erroneous and miss leading. I do understand the dangers that exist with candles etc. but the that is a user issue. Many houses have been burnt down as a result of children not being adequately supervised, but that is a different matter. Matters of litigation are far beyond me., and is possibly an issue for another thread for people that know and understand the law.

Again I asked the question to help wood turners in general.

But, thanks for your input.

Jim

Jim

Jim,

"Again I asked the question to help wood turners in general." - Certainly an altruistic goal, but not likely to happen.

There is no universal mandatory requirement for an "Australian Standard" for (all) products, it is the manufacturers / importers / suppliers / retailers / individual vendors obligation under Australian consumer and other laws to prove that the product/s they supply meets in this particular instance the "combustibility" test set out in Consumer Protection Notice #12 of 2011.

Australian and other recognized standards are created if funded by "sponsors" or are enforced by Acts & Regulations to give consumers some confidence and protection that the product/s supplied with those standards approval marks meet certain minimum criteria set out in the standards. Industry bodies at their cost fill the void in some instances with what is effectively "industry best practice" documentation to lessen the risk to their members. Product Liability Insurance protection is available for "wood workers" through the VWA.

Standards are very effective, however supplying "standards" has become a money making racket imo. Once they were relatively very modestly priced, now they are priced to suit the "market."

Actual real compliance with standards and consumer protection laws, well - zipf - opening a huge can or worms here,

Does the standards and consumer protection laws, notice/s process work? In classic Aussie lingo - Yeah, Nah! Look at children's cots, prams, butane burners (camp stoves), Takata airbags, VW emissions compliance, banking / insurance / Superannuation (fee for no service), aged care …… to name but a few and the recent news items about fuel pump / bowser undersupply.

Choice has been warning about non-compliant consumer products entering the Australian market for years, they are still there, and will continue to exist whilst surveillance compliance testing and enforcement is underfunded. We have seen non-compliant electrically unsafe products in our small wood turning / working market, with non-earthed bandsaws, and foot operated switches, ineffective guards on machinery, etc - because there is doubt about "mandatory" vs "voluntary" compliance with particular standards.

Many of the Butane Camp Stoves / Burners carry the AGA approvals stamps, samples of most were tested and apparently complied at the time of testing. Those approvals have since been rescinded, products recalled etc, but the "sold" products are still out there with the AGA approval stickers still on them. "OLD" non-compliant product can be found alongside "NEW" compliant product on store shelves in many instances. Is the paltry "foil barrier" on "tea light candles" an effective hazard reduction control?????

The guts of the matter - is that small makers cannot carry the testing & compliance costs for "high risk" products. Apparently the big end of town has little regard for consumer protection. Factor in compliance enforcement heavily reliant upon the "deterrent factor" of heavy monetary penalties (for some) it is literally not worth the risk vs the small return for small manufacturers / makers. IMO small makers such as wood turners (if they are aware of their obligation) are more likely to be "responsible" but that is little comfort to us.

Certainly we as makers have very little "control" over how our products such as "candle holders" are used in the home but our obligation (penalty) is determined under the "supply of a (non-) compliant" product, not how it is used! How many people read "user manuals" or "product warnings?"

edit - Clint Eastwood's "Dirty Harry" line seems appropriate here when it comes to our risk - "You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, punk?"

Jimmie, I discussed this at length with Moby at Prossie Turnout quite a few years ago and I just decided to stop making candle holders.
BTW, I used to go to all house fires as part of my job and the 2 majority causes were lit candles and cooking oil on the stove.
Rgds,
Crocy.

My thoughts......All tea light candles come in their own little container for burning which needs to be "fireproof" or it wouldn't be allowed for sale (assuming checks are done!!!). When it comes to insurance etc, its not the candle in itself thats the issue but whether or not you are careless or reckless in the way you use an open flame with its own fuel source. Take a tea light candle out of it's container and place it on the carpet and it causes a fire, that is at least careless if not reckless. Have a look at some home insurance policies when it comes to claiming for fires. Just about every item around can be dangerous if you are reckless. So if their are or aren't minimal standards you still need to not be reckless