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Thread: Finish On Endgrain
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6th June 2005, 10:57 PM #1SENIOR MEMBER
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Finish On Endgrain
This was a small bowl made out of some of the local hardwood. As you can see, there is a problem with the finish on the endgrain. It's the same on the other side of the bowl. It was one of the first things I did so I put the bad finish down to inexperience and blunt tools but I got myself some lumps of the same timber and began to turn them a year later with the same result. The only tool I have been able to get any half way decent finish with is a round scraper held on a 45deg angle. What tools do others get the best finish with on the outside of bowls?
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6th June 2005, 11:12 PM #2Retired
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What grit did you go down to?
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7th June 2005, 12:00 AM #3SENIOR MEMBER
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Originally Posted by
It's what prompted me to post the thread about the shallow hybrid gouge that Mike Darlow mentions on his DVD. He seems to equate it's finishing qualities to that of a skew which is not a recommended chisel on bowls.
At the moment, all my gouges, with the exception of the roughing gouge, are 12mm or less and seem to cause subsurface damage on endgrain.
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7th June 2005, 12:49 AM #4Retired
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Originally Posted by adrian
However, I sometimes use a 3/8 spindle gouge on bowls as its fingernail shape seems to cut better.
I hate to be a nark here but it does boil down to technique if you have chisel marks or gouges in the timber.
Try this: increase the speed (gradually, one speed at atime) until it vibrates the lathe. Make sure that it is well mounted in the chuck. Back it off one speed.
Move the toolrest in to within half an inch a fraction below centre. sharpen the chisel, either a small bowl gouge or small spindle gouge. Moving slowly and keeping the bevel rubbing the whole way start from the smallest diameter to the largest on the outside. This keeps the fibres supported while cutting. Inside is opposite.
Take light cuts and do it as many times as it needs to get a reasonable groove free finish.
I must admit that I have an advantage here as my lathe has reverse and makes sanding relatively easy.
Start sanding. If you have a rotary sander all the better. Sand until ALL marks have gone. Move to the next grit and repeat until the lines from the previous grit have gone. Next grit etc.
The quarter grain which is where the trouble is will always take a little more effort sometimes stopping the lathe and hand sanding that area.
Do not use much pressure or a pad under the paper as you run the risk of getting heat cracks in the timber. If you burn your fingers it is too hot.
Sand paper is a cutting tool and goes blunt. If it stops sanding and the marks are still there get new paper.
HTH.
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7th June 2005, 12:55 AM #5Originally Posted by adrian
That bit looks like it has a problem in the softer wood.
How old is the timber?
Is there any chance that the softwood is starting to rot?
I use a bowl gouge with long sweep back edges & to get a fine shear-scrape finish, I roll it over & bring the handle around toward me so that just the bottom long edge is in contact with the timber.
This gives a very fine scrape similar to your round nose scraper at an angle.Cliff.
If you find a post of mine that is missing a pic that you'd like to see, let me know & I'll see if I can find a copy.
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7th June 2005, 04:20 AM #6
amazing (I should say annoying) effect!
Several possible reasons from the picture (it is always hard to guess)
The defects are quite horizontal , therefore I doubt it is because of a bad handling of the gouge.
In addition on the picture it looks like the defect is not on all the surface but just on one segment of your vase. If that is the case, may be the piece was no longer entered on the lathe.
If it was centred… may be you insisted too much with the 80 grit which went too deep and not enough with the others.
Again, I am just guessinghttp://www.la-truciolara.com/
La Truciolara is the workshop where I do my shavings.
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7th June 2005, 02:38 PM #7
I'm with & Cliff on this.
If all alse fails ( the above mentioned tool techniques won't fail ) then sand locally with the lathe stopped and 80 grit paper on the end grain only. If it is really bad, put your pride in your pocket and use a 60 g or even 40 grit "gouge" ( lol ) again locally, even if it means using 3 meters of it, then work up to 80 grit on the end grain only. Once you have the endgrain 80 grit smooth with no tear out, spin up the lathe and sand through the grits 80,120,180,240,320,400 etc as said.
With the right technique, light cuts, sharp tools ( throw in lots of patience as well ) you'll soon find that the endgrain cuts almost as smooth as the side grain.
Practice, practice, lots of patience and with more of all that, soon you'll find that it gets better and better. Never accept that an ' ah thats OK ' finish is good enough. Also, if you use a chuck, finish inside the recess properly as all people, for a reason unknown to me, will pick up your project and look at the base first!
Preservere!
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7th June 2005, 03:54 PM #8SENIOR MEMBER
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Originally Posted by Cliff Rogers
I don't have a problem on any other timber. I get a good shiny, unmarked finish (inside and out) with my existing tools on all other projects but this timber is proving difficult on the sides where the endgrain is near 90deg. This would tend to indicate that my toolwork and sanding are good enough.
That's why I asked what other people use ie: their favourite tool. (type and size)
My main problem is that apart from my carbatec HSS set I only have small spindle gouges(12mm or less) and one small bowl gouge.
I'm saving up for some new Hamlet or Crown chisels in the larger sizes and am leaning toward the Euro style gouge such as the Crown 2325 and the Hamlet German style gouge such as the HCT077.
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7th June 2005, 04:14 PM #9
Adrian,
I think that you will find those are really spindle gouges rather than bowl gouges. A good shear/ bowl scraper is a good investment, although they can be made easily from HSS blanks available froma range of suppliers. Some timbers lift that section of grain and there is little that you can do about it, gatiep is right when he says get into it with the sandpaper. Depending on what you have done with the base try throwing it back on the lathe and re-sanding it, some grains take a while to lift but can be worn down again by putting it back on the lathe.
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7th June 2005, 04:15 PM #10Hewer of wood
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You've got the tools you need.
Do more of the scraper at 45 degrees as you've already found, or follow 's instructions carefully with your bowl gouge. If the small one is your only one (not that 12mm is all that small), get your rest as close as you can to the bowl and take LIGHT cuts. Point the flute in the direction you're cutting. Play around with the angle that the edge meets the piece.
Apart from that generic hardwood is often p*ss-poor timber to turn - coarse and/or brittle; grain tear out is common - but to master it you will be learning valuable techniques.Cheers, Ern
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7th June 2005, 05:01 PM #11SENIOR MEMBER
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I just had another go at it.
I tried sanding for about 5 minutes, refreshing the paper frequently and there wasn't one speck of improvement. Then I stopped the lathe and sanded hard with 120 grit across the piece (headstock to tailstock) for about a minute and then turned the lathe back on (1200rpm) and sanded with the same 120grit for a short time. The surface improved a hell of a lot. I did that a couple of times and the problem grain disappeared on the section I used that method.
's suggestion about stopping the lathe and using a rotary sander gave me the clue. I needed to get at the grain from a different direction.
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7th June 2005, 05:32 PM #12SENIOR MEMBER
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Originally Posted by PAH1
You're right about the scraper. The Crown 2565 Bowl Finishing Scraper is another tool I want in my toolbox.
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7th June 2005, 05:56 PM #13Hewer of wood
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Adrian: slow the lathe down a lot; 1200 is way too fast for an abrasive to cut on a bowl.
Cheers, Ern
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7th June 2005, 10:41 PM #14
Yeah, it might be bouncing right over the crook spot.
I have had luck fixing torn end grain with the lathe stopped.
Hit us with another picture once you've sorted it out.Cliff.
If you find a post of mine that is missing a pic that you'd like to see, let me know & I'll see if I can find a copy.
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7th June 2005, 11:00 PM #15
For difficult timbers I use a shear scrape cut using a 1 1/4" heavy duty round nose scraper held on an angle, not flat on the toolrest. Good idea to find someone that can demonstrate the technique as it can be a little frightening. I have also made scraper tools by silver soldering heavy duty high speed hacksaw blades to mild steel blanks. That can save lots of money and produces very good scrapers.
Jim