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  1. #1
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    Default UPDATE on wood drying formula

    Hi all,

    I have a set of bowls roughed turned and this time rather than painting them, I made up a bucket of the solution. I used 4 litres of metho and 4 litres of concentrated dishwashing liquid (homebrand). Out of interest, that is 16 of the little bottles it comes in. I must have looked like a weirdo buying it...

    Anyway, I roughed turned a bowl from:

    Apricot
    Sassafras
    Tea Tree
    Eucalytpus

    When I started, the solution was a pale yellow colour. Now it is quite a dark brown colour, so be careful. I suspect that this comes from two sources, the bark on the apricot and the tea tree tannins. (The solution was turning dark before I put the tea tree in - otherwise I would have assume that was it alone).

    Anyway, the eucalyptus appears to have darkened slightly, the tea tree is slightly darker, the sassy seems quite a bit darker and the apricot (palest wood) seems unaffected.

    Mind you, they were all wet when I pull them out, so after drying they might change colour again.

    It seems that the colour change varies between woods.

    Anyway, I will clean these up in about a week and let you know the outcomes. At present they are wrapped in paper out of the wind and sun drying slowly (hopefully).

    Cam
    <Insert witty remark here>

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  3. #2
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    Default

    Hi Cam

    Interesting to note the change in emphasis of your technique, from finishing now to drying quickly. Mind you though anything that could reliably dry fruit wood and banksia would be a real boon. Banksia is the only thing that I know that checks internally, while flowering plum sapwood distorts so much it is impossible to get the heartwood to remain intact if there is any sapwood at all. I tried straight metho on banskia and was not so impressed. I still think 50% glycerol would be worth a go since it is effective with redgum.

  4. #3
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    Default

    Hey Cam, how long do you leave it in the solution?
    Cliff.
    If you find a post of mine that is missing a pic that you'd like to see, let me know & I'll see if I can find a copy.

  5. #4
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    Default

    Well, it was always meant to be used for drying wood.

    My previous attempts used 50/50 acetone and conc. detergent. I simply painted it on thickly and left it a week.

    However, the apricot bowl I tried this with last time cracked slightly across the pith.

    None of the rest of the bowls have cracked and they move only a very small amount.

    To try to improve the outcome slightly I have left these in the solution for about 5 days and I will leave them for a week or two to dry.

    The bowls coming out of the solution had not warped at all (by visual inspection).

    I hope that they don't muck up as I think that so far they are probably my best work.

    Cam
    <Insert witty remark here>

  6. #5
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    Default

    Don't know if this is of any use.
    I think that the objective is to remove sap as I was lead to believe that sap is the cause of splitting.(Amongst other reasons)

    Detergent or soap works because the soap particles attract the dirt, grime, fat, etc particles and takes them away from the surface you are cleaning. (In the washing up, anyway)

    Therefore I would assume that the detergent removes sap the same way it removes fat and grime from the washing up.

    Hope that makes sense and might be useful to someone.


    Just an aside, I have heard that detergent is an excellent way to bend timber.
    Just soak it for awhile and eventually it will bend like spaghetti.
    I have'nt tried this , just read it somewhere.
    "What a fabulous race! Barry Sheene's riding his Suzuki as though he's married to it."
    Quote/Murray Walker.

  7. #6
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    Default

    I thought that it was actually trying to replace the water with the detergent particles.

    Anyway, you may be right about the sap?

    thanks for the input

    Cam
    <Insert witty remark here>

  8. #7
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    Default

    And I was under the impression that suitable LDD's were hygroscopic. I say suitable, 'cos not all LDD's work; as I understand things it has to be a concentrate and even then I've found a couple that just don't work.

    Here's an excerpt from one of my references, discussing detergents:
    These have a lower alkalinity than trisodium phosphate. The commonly used complex phosphate are:
    • Tetrasodium pyrophosphate Na4P2O7
    • Sodium tripolyphosphate Na5P3O10
    • Sodium tetraphosphate Na6P4O13 (hygroscopic)
    • Sodium hexametaphosphate (NaPO3)6 (hygroscopic)


    Tetrasodium pyrophosphate is the more alkaline, alkalinity reducing on descending order. They produce metallic complexes with metallic ions. This can be written ionically as Na2(MgP2O7). This, the magnesium ion in this instance is inactivated, or sequestered. The product formed does not precipitate from solution.

    Tetrasodium pyrophosphate is best for magnesium ions, and sodium hexametaphosphate is best for calcium ions. Sodium tripolyphosphate lies in between.

    All complex phosphates enhance the detergency of soap type detergents. If a piece of cloth has imbedded in it some calcium in the form of an insoluble calcium soap, the phosphate molecule re-dissolves the calcium, releases sodium which re-combines with the soap molecule, and thereby regenerates useable soap. This is achieved by the sodium combining with the fatty acid anion of the soap molecule.

    This “adding to the detergency” is called “synergism”. This means that if we have two ingredients:
    • 1 gram/litre DDBS; or
    • 1 gram/litre sodium tripolyphosphate; or
    • 0.5 grams/litre of DDBS and sodium tripolyphosphate;


    ...it will be found that washing clothes in the third solution will be cleaner and brighter, than if washed in either of the first two.

    Complex phosphate can deflocculate and keep in suspension insoluble materials like clay, and emulsify oily materials. Related to this property of deflocculation is the property of petization, this being the property to keep finely divide particles (solids) in suspension, and prevent them of recoagulating. One problem though, is the reversion of complex phosphates back to orthophosphates. This is reasonably rapid for hexametaphosphate, slower for the pyrophosphates. For liquid detergents, tetrapotassium pyrophosphate is favoured, having a solubility of 60% in water.

    Phosphate have become out of favour biologically because of eutrophication, but suitable alternatives are hard to find that will completely replace them.
    I've always assumed that it's the ones with the hygroscopic phosphates that worked.

    Then again, does it really matter? It could be little soap pxies who don't like damp feet for all I care, so long as it works.
    I may be weird, but I'm saving up to become eccentric.

    - Andy Mc

  9. #8
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    Well, I haven't looked into it that well, but the Homebrand one seems to work (but then that might be more due to the metho)?? :confused:

    Whatever the outcome. I am happy so far.

    Cam
    <Insert witty remark here>

  10. #9
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    Default Drying Solution for Apricot

    Cam, don't want to act like I'm butting in, but I've discovered what works for me, with Apricot wood.
    I bought 15 bottles of Ivory Dishwashing Liquid (it's clear), and mixed it with 15 bottles of water, making a 50/50 solution. I rough turned from green Apricot: one lidded box 7" dia X 3" tall, One bowl 7" dia X 2.5" tall, and 2 vases 8" tall X 4" wide at the bulge (sizes are approximations).
    I turned them all to about 1/2" thickness (while turning, I squirted them occasionally with some of the soap solution to keep the outside wet), and threw them into the soap solution. Left them for 7 days. Took them out of the solution and set them on a wire shelf.
    The next day, I began with one of the vases, and finished it to about 1/4" throughout. Because I'm slow (I only had homemade Oland tools), I finished one a day, to include lacquer, and to this date (a year later) not one crack in any of them, and only a very slight movement. The lid on the box still fits, but isn't quite as loose as when I finished it. The bowl is still round, and the vases are beautiful. (My Sweetie loves 'em)
    The Apricot has, however, darkened considerably.:confused:
    Just my experience with the Apricot. I'll try it with more fruitwoods if I ever get any.... It might work for you, if you want to give it a try.
    Someone smarter than me said the soap fills the cells so they don't collapse. Who knows? I couldn't crawl into one to see if it was full or not.
    OldGuyYoungTurner
    Maker of fine mulch.

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by OGYT
    Someone smarter than me said the soap fills the cells so they don't collapse. Who knows? I couldn't crawl into one to see if it was full or not.
    It's the soap pixies, I tell ya!

    Certainly sounds like it worked well... the last lot of apricot I air-dried checked all the way through, even though I knew 'twas liable to shakes and so tended it with TLC.

    How much is "considerably"? Any chance of some before/after pics?
    I may be weird, but I'm saving up to become eccentric.

    - Andy Mc

  12. #11
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    Default

    OGYT, thanks for the input - never be afraid to impart your wisdom, I know that at least one person will be thankful for it, thus it is worth it.

    Mine hasn't darkened at all and the second batch of stuff hasn't cracked (yet).

    My first attempt (which is posted elsewhere) was very similar to yours, but I hadn't made up enough solution to soak it, so instead I wrapped it in wet rags. It did crack (but only very slightly) after I took it out of the rags. Shedhand has it now (another guy on the forums) and I think that he and his wife are happy with it.

    By the way, with your successes - did yours have the pith running through it? Mine did (which is why it cracked I think). It also moved a little, but only on the almost sharp lip of the bowl.

    Anyway, I am happy with the results I am getting so far and I think that adding the detergent to metho instead of water improves the process (and stops the soap from going stinky)... I think that it gets all the soap pixies high from the fumes though.

    Cam
    <Insert witty remark here>

  13. #12
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    Default Soapy Apricot turnings

    Skew, I have only these shots of the box, and two vases. I don't have shots that will show the difference in shade. They are darker than these shots show, but I don't know how to get the point across about how much darker.
    I would say that the lighter shades on these shots are now about like the medium shades on the photos, and so on.
    Does that make any sense?
    OGYT
    Last edited by OGYT; 18th September 2006 at 03:20 PM.

  14. #13
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    Great box especially (I love the handle on the lid).

    Your apricot it a lot darker than mine, although mine is dark in some patches.

    However, did you notice that simply leaving the apricot out and exposed to the air darkened the wood anyway?

    Cam
    <Insert witty remark here>

  15. #14
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    And darker than mine, which looked more like lemon with a dark pith and very light, almost featureless sapwood. Overall, yours is the nicer timber of the two.

    I have to agree with Cam on the box. And the lid still fits properly? Bonus!
    I may be weird, but I'm saving up to become eccentric.

    - Andy Mc

  16. #15
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    Cam & Skew... I think that the light on the table where these items sit is sort of like the sun... I think that's what's making them get darker.
    Say, how much does it cost to send about 5 pounds to the USA? How hard is it for you to get Banksia Pods? I thought there might be a chance we might swap some Mesquite or Bois d'Arc for Banksia Pods... just a thought.
    OGYT
    maker of fine mulch

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