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  1. #1
    Join Date
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    Default My impression of the D-Way 1/2" bowl gouge.

    So, after NeilS imported his D-Way bowl gouge, I was surprised to receive a PM asking if I'd like to take it for a test run.

    Needless to say, I jumped at the chance. So I owe many, many thanks to Neil for giving me this opportunity to tortu^H^H^H test the D-Way. You silly, silly man.

    Now, during testing I didn't take any measurements or timings, nor did I bother taking any photos. This was purely subjective; my impressions of how it actually performed as compared to other similar bowl gouges. (We've all seen specs of equipment that look absolutely fabulous, but in use are like herding cats, haven't we?)

    For this test, I chose a lump of Ironbark from my firewood pile, a largish old Redgum burl, a lightning-struck piece of Mulga stump and a 4x4 chunk of Radiata post, courtesy of Bunnings. Y'know... all the "traditional" Aussie hardwoods. Hehe.

    I should also mention that these aren't pieces lovingly selected from some Timber Boutique in downtown Yuppiesville. No, these are pieces that have been dragged in from the wilds and haven't been broken to the saddle yet, let alone house broken.

    The Redgum burl even had the chutzpah to mark it's spot with a li'l pile of sandy grit.

    To give me something to compare it to, I broke out my Doug Thompson 1/2" v-flute, (I wish I had a U-flute for a more accurate comparison, but I don't.) a 1/2" P&N U-flute (my daily workhorse) and just for giggles, the Doug Thompson 3/8" v-flute Kryo I use for finishing cuts.

    The D-Way itself is a very nice piece of machining, 1/2" with a nice, crisp, faultless U-flute (the best I've seen out of the box) and a small secondary bevel on the heel of the primary. It arrived in the post un-handled and, as it's not mine to modify, I went looking for my interchangeable handles. This took me a while, as I generally only use these for goose-necks when deep hollowing, which isn't really my thing. Having found both my 3/8" and 5/8" handles, but not the faintest hint of the hiding place of the 1/2", I decided that rather than muck about with a bad fit I'd use one of Hughie's Rip-Snorter Jr (I think) Oland tools which takes 3/8" sq HSS stock.

    A nice fit, but in effect it made the handle much longer & weightier than any of the tools I was comparing it to, all of which had dedicated handles customised for me. Naturally, I believe this is reflected in the results to a small degree.

    Before I started, I set up my grinding jig to reflect the D-Way's angles and reground my 1/2" gouges to match to reduce variables for comparison. (But not the Kryo... I like that just the way it is and have no intention of changing it.) Now, I know the DT is a V-flute so the result has a different shape on the wings, but the P&N is a U-flute which still came out slightly differently; it has a different U profile. Still, the tips are the same and I intended to do most of the cutting on the tips.

    If any-ones curious as to what those angles actually are... sorry. I'll guess at 55 deg for the primary; I simply copy-pasta'd the angles over using the jig.

    My sharpening setup is quite simple. A 6" AlOx (white) wheel and a Teknatool jig. Each trip to the grinder took more time to set the tool correctly in the jig than was spent actual sharpening; which was just a matter of a single pass or so to 'freshen' the edge. When using good tools I tend to sharpen lightly but often. (Except with the P&N but... well... we all have bad habits. I did try to apply the same sharpening regime to it, but habits are called habits for good reason. )

    The secondary bevel is interesting, it's not something I've played with before. Certainly makes bottom feeding more easy, but I found it reduced the safe range of "angle of attack" for most other cuts. Perhaps I rely more on feedback from bevel pressure than I thought. This is my shortcoming, not a reflection on the D-Way. I found it to be true of all the tools I reground with the secondary bevel.

    It only took a few minutes for me to adjust, but I think that when it comes time to regrind to original angles the P&N is going to lose it. Methinks I'll keep it on the Thompson, as I use that almost solely for finishing cuts anyway, so I'm rarely aggressive with it and the bevel does make finishing bottoms easier.

    The actual turning was pretty much just me mounting a lump, then starting to rough, alternating between each tool for about a minute, until it needed sharpening or I decided the blank was unsafe without further treatment, whichever came first. I used each tool roughly (no pun intended. Honest!) 5 times, before switching modes and doing some hollowing. Similar tool usage, but hollowing a roughly 6"dia x 3"deep bowl in the end. On each surface (bowl and exterior) I did a finishing pass with the Kryo to give me a baseline of a good off-the-tool finish for each piece of timber. Which was pretty much the only times I used the Kryo.

    Then I'd dismount and move onto the next lump of wood. The whole process has left me with some interestingly shaped blanks! The Redgum burl and piece of Ironbark will need some stabilising before I continue with them, but they'll both make interesting pieces if/when finished.

    Results?

    Well... I'm not going to bother covering how each timber cuts differently. You only need to spin them up for yourself to find that out.

    In use I found that the D-Way is pretty much the same as the 1/2" Thompson. I didn't see any real difference between the ease of use or resharpening times. (And with these timbers there were quite a few trips to the grinder! ) I believe that I sharpened the Thompson a tad more often than the D-Way but only by a trip or two. Considering that I didn't time the cut durations or measure volume removed I'd say that within a given margin of error they hold their edges about the same.

    I did notice that at first the D-Way was giving me a nicely burnished finish which puzzled me as the other tools weren't, even though they had the same cutting angles at the tip. This is where I suspect that the overly long/heavy handle made a difference, probably pulling my cuts off a degree or so from where I thought they were and, in effect, heavily rubbing the bevel. I'm probably going to look into doing that deliberately in future, for pieces where I want that look off the tool!

    The P&N, surprisingly, only went to the grinder a bit more often and actually hogged out a wee tad faster. This is one of the reasons this isn't an empirical test... one variable I can't reduce is ME. With tools I care about, I tend to cut 'properly and safely.' The P&N is my day-to-day workhorse though and I tend to be very aggressive with it; it's job is removing bulk material when I don't really care about the finish. So I allow it to stay blunt for longer and often put a bit of elbow grease into using it.

    (For any beginners, this is NOT recommended! It's much safer to let the tool cut at it's own rate. Not only does forcing the tool overheat the edge, leading to more frequent sharpening, but in the case of embedded objects it can mean the difference between chipping the edge and losing an inch or two of steel... or breaking the tool-rest! DAMHIKT. Now that P&N's aren't as readily or cheaply available, perhaps I should reconsider using it this way?)

    If the above few paragraphs don't make sense, let's just say that I whaled on the P&N while I used the others correctly, which skews the findings quite a bit. I did try NOT to, honestly, but the moment I pick up the P&N the ol' muscle learning kicks in and the monster is loosed. It's all in my head, I know, but if you think that's a simple fix, I got bad news for ya.

    The DT & D-Way gouges matched the finish fairly easily, which is a good thing. The P&N failed, sorta. After a fresh sharpen it'd start off nicely, but I couldn't manage more than one or two finishing cuts before it degraded the cut and needed resharpening. Nothing unexpected there in any way, given the timbers I was abusing.

    Conclusion:

    Will I buy one? No. I don't need it, I have the Thompson which is pretty much it's equal. Do I want one? Hell, yes. Every turner should have at least one tool of this calibre, for finishing cuts at least.

    If I was living in the States so I didn't have to pay import duties and shipping, I could easily see this becoming my workhorse instead of the P&N. More expensive, true, but it lasts longer and - I'm guesstimating here - would work out about the same cost over the tool's lifetime. Mind you, I also say the same about the DT. Heh.


    PS: Yoohoo! 1/2" handle? You listening? The trials are over, the nasty feral pieces are back in their boxes and you can come home now...
    I may be weird, but I'm saving up to become eccentric.

    - Andy Mc

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    Excellent comparative revue, Andy. Thanks for putting in such an effort on that. It is great to get a second opinion from an experienced turner.

    I agree with your conclusion, Andy. Other than for finishing cuts, the D-Ways and Thompsons are equals in many respects, albeit with different flute profiles and steels. As work horses they both hold an edge for about the same time. There seems to be very little difference on that score between the V10 steel in the Thompsons compared to the D-ways with M42 steel.

    I have been saying for some time that there is very little difference between the steels now used by most of the major turning tool makers. The differences come down to flute profile, finish, and of course, cost.

    Back when we could only get Dave Schweitzer's and Doug Thompson's tools from the US there wasn't much difference in the cost between them, although Doug's were always slightly cheaper. Now that we can buy Doug's tools here in Australia at very competitive prices that tilts things in favour of Doug's, although you are likely to have to spend a bit of time grinding/polishing the milling marks out of the flutes on his, but once done that no longer becomes an issue.

    On the finishing cuts off the D-ways, although you didn't find it to be so Andy, IME it gives a finer finishing cut when freshly sharpened than any other gouge that I have (and I have quite a few different ones), but as you point out that comes at a considerable additional cost over the Thompsons, which may not be an important enough factor for many turners, especially for new turners given everything else they have to buy. I admit, it really is a luxury to have gouges sitting there for just doing final finishing cuts. So, that is why if I had to reduce my kit down to just one bowl gouge I would probably keep the D-way.

    BTW, Dave calls the flute on his standard bowl gouges a 'parabolic U shape'. Doug calls the flutes on his standard bowl gouges a 'V shape' (he also makes one that he calls a 'U shape'). But, neither Dave's parabolic U nor Doug's V conform to those letter shapes. Both are somewhat parabolic with Dave's being wider and more open and Doug's narrower at the bottom.

    D-W 5-8in 1.JPG T 15v 5-8in 1.JPG
    D-way on left Thompson on right


    Woodcut 0.5in sm.jpg
    But, for a classic parabolic
    flute profile this is the
    Woodcut in comparison

    The different flute profiles do make a difference and respond to the different grinds, each in their own way. Most turners have a preference.

    Now that P&N are no longer with us, there are few other options available here in the lower price bracket.

    Some of the 'cheaper' options now available are:

    The Vicmarc BGs are, like Doug's, made from V10 but with a more open parabolic flute closer to the Woodcuts and, although cheaper, at this stage I'm not yet convinced that they are quite on the mark in terms of finish and temper.

    I love the parabolic on the Woodcut BGs and although only in M2 steel, it still performs well and is a reasonable price if you get it unhandle and shop around for it.

    From there it is a jump up to the next level, whether you are importing yourself or buying from local importers. The before-mentioned (but not named) importer of Thompsons is the next price point up. A proven tool at a reasonable cost for most turners. So-called V and U fluted profiles are available with that option.

    Sorby, Hamlet, Crown and Henry Taylor offerings in M2 steel come in next, but are becoming pricy for what you get, IMO. The next step up from there in quality are the M42 steel tools, including the D-ways, Henry Taylor, Hamlet, Crown, and Carter and Sons. The outliers are the powdered metal offerrings from Crown (eg. Ellsworth signature BG. I have some of those and like them) and the CPM M4 from Oneway. All these are getting way up there A$ wise. Whether a tool is available un-handled is another factor in the price. Keep an eye out for discounts now that there is some competition in this category.

    There may be other options I am not aware of. Have I missed an obvious one?

    The decisions are getting harder and the lower A$ is not helping.

    Anyway, thanks again Andy for the side-by-side shoot off review. Hope you also had some fun while doing that.

    And, as always, .....
    Stay sharp and stay safe!

    Neil



  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilS View Post
    On the finishing cuts off the D-ways, although you didn't find it to be so Andy, IME it gives a finer finishing cut when freshly sharpened than any other gouge that I have (and I have quite a few different ones), but as you point out that comes at a considerable additional cost over the Thompsons, which may not be an important enough factor for many turners, especially for new turners given everything else they have to buy. I admit, it really is a luxury to have gouges sitting there for just doing final finishing cuts. So, that is why if I had to reduce my kit down to just one bowl gouge I would probably keep the D-way.
    Personally, I don't consider it a luxury to have one good gouge set aside for finishing cuts. That way I can use less than ideal methods/tools for hogging out and still have expectations of a good finished result. But I'm impatient compared to most.

    I suspect that my choice of timbers was partially to blame for my not spotting any real difference in the finish. They did not make curlies, they made dust... which makes it a tad difficult to know exactly when you're presenting the tool for the cleanest cut. As I'm sure you're aware, there's a difference between when a tool cuts fastest and when it cuts cleanest.

    Now that I think of it, I should've included a piece of fiddlebacked Tas. Blackwood in the test group. That tends to be a good one for testing finish cuts.
    I may be weird, but I'm saving up to become eccentric.

    - Andy Mc

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
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    North Carolina, USA
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    I am a tool slut. I have only one tool I bought new, Crown 1/2 inch bowl gouge, the first bowl gouge I bought when I had some Christmas crazy money and was in a woodworking store. I have Henry Taylor, Sorby, Thompson, generic Sheffield steel, Penn State Industries Chinese, and claimed HSS mystery metal bowl gouges. All bought used at around 1/2 retail price, and are HSS.

    With the US timbers I turn I find almost no difference between them in sharpening and length of clean cutting time. Some are more V shaped, some more U shaped. I prefer the more U shaped.

    If one is not adverse to buying Chinese stuff, trying a HSS bowl gouge might be an alternative to the higher priced US gouges. I am not referring to the set of 8 turning tools for US $20, but those like this: Bowl Gouges at Penn State Industries
    So much timber, so little time.

    Paul

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul39 View Post

    If one is not adverse to buying Chinese stuff, trying a HSS bowl gouge might be an alternative to the higher priced US gouges. I am not referring to the set of 8 turning tools for US $20, but those like this: Bowl Gouges at Penn State Industries
    Paul - we have our own version of those here...

    McJING Tools Online

    Pop's Shed Woodturning Tools - Woodturning Tools and Timber, Woodturner Accessories, Woodcarver Supplies, Woodturning Equipment

    GPW Wood Turning Gouges

    All good enough to get someone started, but from various accounts the tempering can be a bit erratic at that price point. As soon as the quality control tightens up the price also goes up.

    Wood Turning Tools Deep Bowl Gouge 1/2"

    At one stage I was looking for a 3mm (1/8") spindle gouge for rolling small beads. There were none in that size available here at a reasonable price so I purchased one from McJing. I've been using it now for years, but it has to do very little cutting to roll a small bead, so the quality of the tempering isn't so critical.

    However, whenever I pick up someone else's generic bowl gouge to show them something I more often than not get reminded very quickly that not all turning tools are made to the same high standard. Some cheapies are OK, others are way off. As a novice you don't know the difference. With experience you become impatient with the poor performers and the few extra $s to get dependable quality is well worth it.

    The thing about our dearly departed P&N turning tools that were made here is that the tempering was always spot on for M2. They may have needed a little bit of tidying up in the flutes, but once that was done you were getting as good as M2 could deliver at that price point. A novice could start with them and still be using them 30 or 40 yrs later as an experienced turner. By then of course you will have added a few extra later comers to the tool rack and they might not get quite as much use as they used to, although my 1-1/4" P&N SRG is not about to be sidelined anytime soon.

    Anyway, my apologies, I have taken us off Skew's topic.

    Awaiting any further impressions from him.
    Stay sharp and stay safe!

    Neil



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