Thread: some lateral thinking

Probably cheaper that the Wood cut replaceable tips too!

$60 for the Woodcut 12mm and only $32 for a Sutton / P&N tap + your time and skill.

I like the Woodcut spindle & bowl gouge tips & handle for a "travelling set" but they are a luxury really when compared to the price and longevity of a "standard" spindle or bowl gouge (Sorby $154). Man haven't tools become expensive!

Originally Posted by Mobyturns

Probably cheaper that the Wood cut replaceable tips too!

$60 for the Woodcut 12mm and only $32 for a Sutton / P&N tap + your time and skill.

I like the Woodcut spindle & bowl gouge tips & handle for a "travelling set" but they are a luxury really when compared to the price and longevity of a "standard" spindle or bowl gouge (Sorby $154). Man haven't tools become expensive!

Yeah I have often looked at the Woodcut tips, apart from price I was never sure that they were any better than other tool makes. What I have been looking for was tungsten carbide tip gouges. I have one 5/16 or 8mm its edge holding capability is by far the best I have. I ran it through 6 bowls before it needed a grind, very impressive, so much so I would love a full set of them.

Originally Posted by hughie

Yeah I have often looked at the Woodcut tips, apart from price I was never sure that they were any better than other tool makes.

Not sure about edge holding but I do like the solid shaft. When I turn my small lin-lam bowls down to less than 2mm thick you can certainly appreciate the difference between the Woodcut and more conventional comparable 3/8 bowl gouges. Less harmonic vibration imho.

Originally Posted by Mobyturns

Not sure about edge holding but I do like the solid shaft. When I turn my small lin-lam bowls down to less than 2mm thick you can certainly appreciate the difference between the Woodcut and more conventional comparable 3/8 bowl gouges. Less harmonic vibration imho.

Yup agree with that, any hollowers I have made all are out HCS or 316 stainless and the HCS would be hardened and tempered linear shafts. I was very happy to see the Rolly Munro Wunderkut has a 16mm shaft and very stable. Although I dont go super deep these days probably no more than 400 and 16mm would be my smallest dia, 19-20mm on the long ones.

Originally Posted by hughie

What I have been looking for was tungsten carbide tip gouges.

I'm not sure why there isn't a well known manufacturer making them.

I've seen spindle gouges with a carbide tips, so it can be done for a reasonable price...

3/8 in. Carbide Pen Making Spindle Gouge Item #: LCPM3CAR-G

... and I've thought about grinding out the flute on one of those for bowl turning, but 3/8"is a bit small for my needs... 1/2" or 5/8" would be better. Also, I'm not sure how much carbide is left in those spindle gouges to allow for a deeper flute.

Then there is the issue of (ideally) needing diamond to grind out the flutes. There are radiused diamond wheels available for chainsaw sharpeners that could possibly do the job. But, it would be better if the carbide was at least pre-formed for bowl turning to minimise the amount of grinding to be done.

Woodturners have adopted CBN wheels more recently, they being more suited to HSS, but few have diamond wheels and that may be the reason why there has been a reluctance by tool manufacturers to add a carbide option to their range. An expensive tool plus a dedicated expensive diamond wheel may be too high a threshold for the market. There are ways of getting around the diamond grinding/resharpening snag, but probably not around the volumes of tips required to bring down the unit cost of pre-casting them.

I also use and quite like Woodcut's tips. They also have specialised tips made for some of their other tools, like their pro-forme, so are the most likely to add something like a carbide BG tip to their range, but no sign of that.

I have also had a look at some of the Hunter tools that have a 'carbide' cupped tip mounted down at at angle that presents the edge in a way that isn't a lot different to that of some grinds on a BG. Many users of those tools just use then in scraping mode doing plunge cuts, etc., but they can be used in bevel rubbing mode, as can be seen at the mid point in the following video. Evidently the tips keep a sharp edge for a long time, but may be challenged by some of our woods....

#2 Osprey Tool Final | Hunter Tool Systems Demonstrations - YouTube

I have one that was given to me to evaluate, I guess the outlay was going to be too much so it never got off the ground. Although I reckon it would have put a few other manufacturers under the gun, given how well my sample held up across a range of Aussie hardwoods. In a market like the US it would have been a winner as most of their timber is bit like butter you would probably turn for most of the day between grinds
Sometimes in this sort venture the manufacturer will produce a certain number to make it worth their while. I know Rolly Munro has to spend at least $10,000USD for a run on his hollowers and that was several years ago. I have a couple of tool designs that are proving expensive to get off the ground even with me doing as much as I can.

Originally Posted by NeilS

I have also had a look at some of the Hunter tools that have a 'carbide' cupped tip...

they can be used in bevel rubbing mode, as can be seen at the mid point in the following video.

#2 Osprey Tool Final | Hunter Tool Systems Demonstrations - YouTube

Found a better video with John Lucas showing how he uses the cupped tips in bevel rubbing mode. Interesting to note that he prefers to do the bulk of the wood removal inside bowls with a bowl gouge as he finds that part quicker with one of those.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfp2kvhH6Mo


Back when the carbide tips (the flat top ones) first became readily available I experimented with using them in bevel rubbing mode...

Round carbide cutter - profile.JPG

That worked OK'ish but I didn't like the way the shavings came off the 'cut' and sprayed me with fine splinters, so I relegated it to when I was roughing down blanks with stone/sand/metal/dirt inclusions. I may have had a different experience had I experimented with the cupped carbide tips that appear to do a cut that is closer to that of a bowl gouge.

Lucas emphasises the finish he gets off the cupped tips in his video, which is not my primary interest. I find M42 HSS, with its high cobalt content, is quite adequate for fine finishing cuts.

I'm more interested in a tip/tool that will cut for longer during the roughing down/out stage on our harder and more abrasive woods. Doug Thompson's 15v gouge (with 5% more vanadium than his 10v gouges) is definitely more durable than any other gouge I've used made of M2, M42 or 10v. Doug no longer makes the 15v gouge and the only other 15v offering isn't an economic option at A$400 (landed here), at least for me.

So, Hughie, I'm very interested in your project or any any other input on the topic.

Originally Posted by NeilS

Found a better video with John Lucas showing how he uses the cupped tips in bevel rubbing mode. Interesting to note that he prefers to do the bulk of the wood removal inside bowls with a bowl gouge as he finds that part quicker with one of those.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfp2kvhH6Mo


Back when the carbide tips (the flat top ones) first became readily available I experimented with using them in bevel rubbing mode...

Round carbide cutter - profile.JPG

That worked OK'ish but I didn't like the way the shavings came off the 'cut' and sprayed me with fine splinters, so I relegated it to when I was roughing down blanks with stone/sand/metal/dirt inclusions. I may have had a different experience had I experimented with the cupped carbide tips that appear to do a cut that is closer to that of a bowl gouge.

Lucas emphasises the finish he gets off the cupped tips in his video, which is not my primary interest. I find M42 HSS, with its high cobalt content, is quite adequate for fine finishing cuts.

I'm more interested in a tip/tool that will cut for longer during the roughing down/out stage on our harder and more abrasive woods. Doug Thompson's 15v gouge (with 5% more vanadium than his 10v gouges) is definitely more durable than any other gouge I've used made of M2, M42 or 10v. Doug no longer makes the 15v gouge and the only other 15v offering isn't an economic option at A$400 (landed here), at least for me.

So, Hughie, I'm very interested in your project or any any other input on the topic.

Rolly Munro sells 10mm and 6mm carbide cup cutters I have several much like John Lucas's ones. My go gouge currently is a Thompson 5/8 for outside work, as you say its about the best around currently I bought via a bulk buy here on the forum several years ago cost $100 landed. I did come across some cup cutters for a metal turning lathe [used] managed after awhile to sharpen one of the and fitted a shield to it. its work quite well as yet I havent used it much. But expect it be very durable, oh finished the edge off on the cutter with a CBN burr slow but it works well.
There is another type of tool steel that claims to be in between HSS and Carbide 'Tantung' it can be sharpened by a standard grinder and from experience has great edge holding capabilities. I t come in standard sizes round, square and flat and designed mainly for metal turning lathes. Buying off local suppliers is a bit expensive $45 for 8mm sq x 50mm long. I have been thinking to go direct to a supplier in the US and run it through my niece in Washington and get her to repost.

Hughie

Thanks for the pointer to the Munro cup tips. AZ Carbides is another source that I have used for regular carbide tips for helical thicknessers, etc.

My limited understanding on the difference between Tantung (tantalum/columium carbide) and TC is that Tantung is more abrasive resistant than TC, but is less shatter resistant.

Robo Hippy uses Tantung which he has braised to a metal bar to make a tool that he calls his 'big ugly tool'. He uses it for heavy rough scraping down/out of blanks. It resists abrasion and is durable as long as you don't drop it as it is also relatively brittle. The following video shows how his big ugly scrapers are made.

The Big Ugly Tool

I expect that Tantung would be quite expensive and too brittle in the form of a solid gouge tip (like those made by Woodcut in M2 HSS), but I'm hoping you might come up with a workable solution, Hughie...

Another option is Stellite. The tips on the Woodcut bowlsavers are made of that. It can be cast into almost any shape, but going by the cost of a small replacement tip for the Woodcut coring bars @$95NZ I expect that the cost of a whole bowl gouge tip cast in Stellite would be a v. expensive option. Perhaps a Stellite sleeve briased inside a flute might be an option from something like this that is used to make bearings.

If these were used in a metal turning lathe then they should be OK for making woodturning gouge tips out of them?

I presume that they are tantung all the way through.

Not sure what the 'G' rating means.

Edit: Since found the following on 'G', see page 10 for tech data.... https://vrwesson.b-cdn.net/Tantung%20Catalog.pdf

So, 60-63 HRC and doesn't anneal below 1500°F/815°C.

Originally Posted by NeilS

Hughie

Thanks for the pointer to the Munro cup tips. AZ Carbides is another source that I have used for regular carbide tips for helical thicknessers, etc.

My limited understanding on the difference between Tantung (tantalum/columium carbide) and TC is that Tantung is more abrasive resistant than TC, but is less shatter resistant.

Robo Hippy uses Tantung which he has braised to a metal bar to make a tool that he calls his 'big ugly tool'. He uses it for heavy rough scraping down/out of blanks. It resists abrasion and is durable as long as you don't drop it as it is also relatively brittle. The following video shows how his big ugly scrapers are made.

The Big Ugly Tool

I expect that Tantung would be quite expensive and too brittle in the form of a solid gouge tip (like those made by Woodcut in M2 HSS), but I'm hoping you might come up with a workable solution, Hughie...

Another option is Stellite. The tips on the Woodcut bowl savers are made of that. It can be cast into almost any shape, but going by the cost of a small replacement tip for the Woodcut coring bars @$95NZ I expect that the cost of a whole bowl gouge tip cast in Stellite would be a v. expensive option. Perhaps a Stellite sleeve braised inside a flute might be an option from something like this that is used to make bearings.

I use Tantung as a Oland type of tool and it works fine edge holding is good, if I had more I would make gouge tip from it. I have not noticed its any more fragile than standard HSS mid you I have kept the length down to a minimum 20-30mm. I am not overly found of Stellite unless you have spare rods and a welder. The early Kelton bowl savers used by the look of it Stellite. On another note most if not all metal turning tips should do just fine as long as you can regrind them. I have a number of ceramic tip I would like to try buy they need 600grit wheel and preferably CBN of which I have neither. In metal turning they are somewhat fragile , but with turning I think they would be ok as long as long as they would take a fine edge like cup tools.
The big ugly I would be inclined to cut the Tantung up and make several tools I wouldnt be using so mush to warrant such a large piece of Tantung. If you use low temp silver solder you can manage it with Mapp gas or whatever is the equivalent to day . I actually silver soldered my 16mm HSS gouge tip on with Mapp gas.

Originally Posted by NeilS

If these were used in a metal turning lathe then they should be OK for making woodturning gouge tips out of them?

I presume that they are tantung all the way through.

Not sure what the 'G' rating means.

Absolutely if they are solid Tantung, I see that you can buy 12mm dia x 50 Tantung this would be ideal in making your gouge tip. Given my success with Oland type Tantung I wondered what it would take for them

Edit: Since found the following on 'G', see page 10 for tech data.... https://vrwesson.b-cdn.net/Tantung%20Catalog.pdf

So, 60-63 HRC and doesn't anneal below 1500°F/815°C.

Absolutely if they are solid Tantung, I see that you can buy 12mm dia x 50 Tantung this would be ideal in making your gouge tip. Given my success with Oland type Tantung I wondered what it would take for them to make gouge tip out Tantung