Thread: Lathe models with reverse feature

Originally Posted by Lyle

Thanks for the inputs.
I was looking at the reverse mainly from the 'exponents' comments and views.
My old woodfast X150 has served me well for over 30 years but now I want something better.

After listening to a LOT of advice, opinions and guidance, I am now seriously looking at the Woodfast C1000X.
It has all the versatility I'll need and it is an Australian company (at least I hope it is).
I think the swivel head will negate my need for reverse. I can work on the inside of deepish bowl rims.
Has indexing head and a good depth of swing, etc.
Can turn outboard with the standard attachment.

Opinions good/bad

Thanks
Lyle.

Lyle, I you could stretch the budget a bit further, what about VL 175? Great machine.

Originally Posted by Tim the Timber Turner

1: It means the sanding pad and the bowl are rotating in opposite directions = more efficient sanding. Of course you can reverse the drill, but I find this tends to unlock a keyless chuck.

Cheers
Tim

Tim, you raise valid & important points about safety & your reasons for sanding in reverse, however I would rather a keyless chuck unlocking than a bowl spinning off the spindle at speed. Both events are hazardous! Would you rather be hit by a sanding pad at high speed or bits of a bowl?? I realize that an experienced turner should be aware of the hazards and use methods (controls) to reduce the hazard & risk.

Hand sanding with the grain also works.

I know I will get hammered for this but here goes .....

The use of locking grub screws on spindle threads and on chuck inserts into the chuck body will eventually cause wear and problems for turners. Damaged spindle threads and misaligned inserts are already appearing & will become more common problems.

I am aware of instances where turners are actually turning in reverse inboard, even standing on the off side of the lathe, and are asking for advice on how to solve "problems" they are experiencing while turning in reverse.

Older & new lathes supplied with outboard turning have opposite hand spindle & face plate threads for a very good reason - to remove the hazard of face plates unwinding. They are safe to use in "reverse" OB when following standard procedures. Scroll chucks are all designed for inboard turning and few if any are actually suitable for turning (not sanding) in reverse without modification. Fortunately manufacturers like Vicmarc have added the securing grub screws to their latest chucks to minimize the risk of chucks unwinding off the spindle when the spindle is rotated in reverse, their use does not remove the risk totally, because we are fallible and may forget to tighten them correctly.

Woodfast do not offer reverse on any of their lathes to my knowledge, and actually refused to include reverse on their M910 VS kit I purchased from them in April 2007. "We do not fit reversing switches due to the dangers involved if / when faceplates / Chucks / projects unscrew while in reverse."

In fact Nova/Teknatool actually caution the user not to use reverse turning in their new Infinity Chuck manual.

"21. DO NOT TURN IN REVERSE. Do not use this chuck for reverse turning operations, light reverse operations i.e. sanding are allowed. Speed not above 2000 rpm." I wonder if that also includes aggressive power sanding in reverse?

I think it is well past time for chuck & lathe manufacturers to step up and make the distinction between "reverse turning" & "reverse sanding" as there is quite some difference in the potential for injury, and the potential for & risk of chucks / face plates unwinding. BTW the hazard also exists OB on lathes with the spindle running in reverse. Neither task is without substantial risk in my opinion using standard chucks & face plates.

These hazards of turning/sanding in reverse can not be totally removed because the spindle thread favours one direction & one direction only! We should only turn & sand in the direction the lathe/chuck/face plate combination is designed for. We can reduce risk somewhat by following "recommended safe procedures" & by having two sets of chucks & face plates for inboard & outboard turning (LH & RH) or use the cheap way out & add a grub screw.

Turners are the ones requesting "reverse" and to be honest I think most reputable manufacturers would warn against turning in reverse.

1. Tim
Tim, you raise valid & important points about safety & your reasons for sanding in reverse, however I would rather a keyless chuck unlocking than a bowl spinning off the spindle at speed. Both events are hazardous! Would you rather be hit by a sanding pad at high speed or bits of a bowl??

**That’s why you should always wear a face shield.**

I realize that an experienced turner should be aware of the hazards and use methods (controls) to reduce the hazard & risk.

Hand sanding with the grain also works.

**Slow and not much fun.**

I know I will get hammered for this but here goes

**Yup and I have a big hammer.**

The use of locking grub screws on spindle threads and on chuck inserts into the chuck body will eventually cause wear and problems for turners.

**What problems, please be specific and give examples.**

Damaged spindle threads and misaligned inserts are already appearing

**Where? Please give examples **

& will become more common problems.

**Where is the evidence for this increase?**

I am aware of instances where turners are actually turning in reverse inboard, even standing on the off side of the lathe, and are asking for advice on how to solve "problems" they are experiencing while turning in reverse.

Older & new lathes supplied with outboard turning have opposite hand spindle & face plate threads

**Not all of them, Vicmarc lathes have a RH thread on each end so only one set of chucks and faceplates are required. They also provide a clamp to prevent the chuck coming undone when turning in reverse or outboard.**

for a very good reason - to remove the hazard of face plates unwinding. They are safe to use in "reverse" OB when following standard procedures.

**Another generalized statement, what procedure, explain please.**

Scroll chucks are all designed for inboard turning

**Not true**

and few if any are actually suitable for turning (not sanding) in reverse without modification. Fortunately manufacturers like Vicmarc have added the securing grub screws to their latest chucks to minimize the risk of chucks unwinding off the spindle

**Another incorrect statement, the grub screw locks the chuck onto the insert.**

when the spindle is rotated in reverse, their use does not remove the risk totally, because we are fallible and may forget to tighten them correctly.

Woodfast do not offer reverse on any of their lathes to my knowledge, and actually refused to include reverse on their M910 VS kit I purchased from them in April 2007. "We do not fit reversing switches due to the dangers involved if / when faceplates / Chucks / projects unscrew while in reverse."

**At one time when Woodfast made lathes in Australia, they would only fit a reversing switch if you signed a declaration that you understood and accepted full responsibility.**

In fact Nova/Teknatool actually caution the user not to use reverse turning in their new Infinity Chuck manual.

"21. DO NOT TURN IN REVERSE. Do not use this chuck for reverse turning operations, light reverse operations i.e. sanding are allowed. Speed not above 2000 rpm." I wonder if that also includes aggressive power sanding in reverse? Why do you need to be aggressive when sanding?


I think it is well past time for chuck & lathe manufacturers to step up and make the distinction between "reverse turning" & "reverse sanding" as there is quite some difference in the potential for injury, and the potential for & risk of chucks / face plates unwinding. BTW the hazard also exists OB on lathes with the spindle running in reverse. Neither task is without substantial risk in my opinion using standard chucks & face plates.

**Every time you turn a lathe on there is an element of risk. The trick is to take precautions to minimize this risk and always use your safety gear.**

These hazards of turning/sanding in reverse can not be totally removed because the spindle thread favours one direction & one direction only! We should only turn & sand in the direction the lathe/chuck/face plate combination is designed for. We can reduce risk somewhat by following "recommended safe procedures" & by having two sets of chucks & face plates for inboard & outboard turning (LH & RH) or use the cheap way out & add a grub screw.

**This contradicts your earlier statement that scroll chucks are all designed for inboard turning.**

Turners are the ones requesting "reverse" and to be honest I think most reputable manufacturers would warn against turning in reverse.

**Then why do they fit reversing to their lathes? Answer. Because there is a demand for it.**

**I know your intentions are good but you make many generalised statements which aren’t backed up facts.

Mobyturns mate, this is not an attack on you personally, I have responded to your post because I think there needs to be some balance to your statements.
I hope you accept this criticism this in the spirit intended which I repeat is not an attack on you personally**

Good luck and keep on turning.

Cheers
Tim

Geez,

I thought I put some provocative posts out there!

Now.... I had one of my beginner students out here this morning, same time each week. As might be expected, some scraping (on a small salt dish on soft wood) was needed to refine the shape and rectify some tear-out. Needless to say, even heavy sanding was needed - until I showed what sort of finish was possible off the tool. And no sanding in reverse. Tormek-sharp CT inserts and starting paper at 240 grit. No burrs on those tools either. Lesson?

Improve your chisel work and sand less, forward or reverse.

Next time anyone has the chance, watch Vic Wood or Ken Wraight at work with razor sharp scrapers. Not much sanding required.

I have turned outboard once, long ago, on my LB VL300 but not in reverse or with the collar on. Bad move, but suited me fine as a leftie. Not so for some aggressive righties that didn't realise I wasn't in reverse. Damage? Yes, to the spindle that took some careful file work to fix as the chuck unwound under tool pressure.

Lesson? Keep it simple. Turn inboard in forward whenever you can. Buy or make a bowl lathe if you want to turn big. Scrape, not sand. Use a very, very, light touch with the right tools and most of the chores re sanding are gone.

Of course, you may be a production turner who may find it quicker to fix turning faults with sandpaper. I'm retired and prefer to get a better finish off the tool. No hurry and DEFINITELY no power sanding here.

Over to you guys and gals.

Apologies for the length but it is worth saying,

Jeff, not provocative at all – just balance. I agree watch a master & learn.

Tim,

First off I like balance to any discussion & appreciate all of your counterpoints - very much so in fact! Thank you.

Hopefully they will make turners think & make judgements for them selves. As you point out "Every time you turn a lathe on there is an element of risk. The trick is to take precautions to minimize this risk and always use your safety gear." Unfortunately many turners are self taught and learn by the school of hard knocks. There is a lot of lathes, chucks, face plates etc out there without the added safety features like grub screws or safety collars. These then get used on new lathes with reverse features, due to a number of factors, cost being the primary one.

To put a little background to where I am coming from - I am very pro safety but not ridiculuously so. I turn, I accept the risk and I have additional hazards to manage as I have a heart condition.

I come from the stand point that turners should make themselves aware of the hazards of wood turning and must learn how to minimize them - ultimately it is their responsibility & choice to adopt or not adopt common and well established procedures that are well proven to minimize hazards & reduce risk. Their choices do affect others though, particularly their families & close friends.

I'm not going to respond to each point you raise but I have done a lot of research on wood turning safety, hazards & risk and have sourced limited data on woodturning injuries. That material is included in six articles I have had published in UK Woodturning magazine Issues #252 to #257. I have put my views out there and they are based upon research & well established & proven industry safety and injury prevention programs.

One of the biggest safety issues we face in woodturning is what are known as "subjective hazards" - the people factor - people are fallible, we make errors in judgement; mistakes; forget; don't understand hazards; will not accept that there is risk and that severe injuries do happen and that less severe injuries occur relatively frequently; and some turners are just plain stubborn or have pride. Lack of knowledge and complacency are the most significant risks to many turners.

The real “trick” is to have tools & machinery safety features, systems, procedures in place to counter our own failings & to overcome subjective hazards – when we forget to do something or do something we know to be “risky”.

On to some points,

“Slow and not much fun.” That is why we use tools & machinery, but it comes with responsibility to use them safely.

Personal Protective Equipment or safety gear is only part of the hazard management process. Removing hazards & risk at the source is a more preferred strategy, rather than attempting to limit the injury with <st1:stockticker>PPE</st1:stockticker>/safety gear. Like not turning in reverse!

A face shield will offer some protection from some impacts but at least five wood turners have been killed at the lathe in the past 7 or 8 years & one in Australia not so long back. Unfortunately we do not know the full facts, and never will, about what happened in each case to cause the severe head injury that led to their death.

We do know that,
1. a bowl exiting the lathe at speed has a high potential to shatter, ricochet etc and potentially cause a head injury.
2. turning in reverse increases that risk substantially IF modifications are not made to spindles/chucks/face plates etc.
3. large bowls can create large mass and potentially high speed flying objects
4. any “natural feature” increases risk substantially.
5. most, maybe all wood turners turn alone in their sheds
6. they may not be discovered for some time if they do become incapacitated.

So any potential for head injury is of great concern. Removing “reverse” eliminates one hazard, but whether that is acceptable to the turner is another matter.


There is plenty of info & examples out there if you are prepared to look,

Help with turning in reverse & teaching how to “scrape in reverse” http://www.woodturningdesign.com/askdale/9/9.shtml
http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/show...and-Right-Hand


Damaged spindle threads, what to do?
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...ads-what-to-do


Jon Siegel raises some very good points on modern lathes that respond to many of your points http://www.bigtreetools.com/articles/Todays-Lathes.pdf (page 3) Note, his points “Designers of metal lathes realized this a half century ago and abandoned the threaded spindle for new types of mounts which are reversible.“ & in his conclusion “reverse” is not even mentioned as a desirable feature – I agree.

http://www.woodturningvideosplus.com/faceplates.html

Peter Child – “Not many lathes have this facility because of the danger of the faceplate or chuck unscrewing.” http://www.peterchild.co.uk/info1/startwt3.htm

“Then why do they fit reversing to their lathes? Answer. Because there is a demand for it.”

Answer. “New” features sell lathes, there is a difference between being a demand and being safe – Woodfast were very astute to have “you sign a declaration that you understood and accepted full responsibility.”

Finally I purchased a new Vicmarc lathe & I doubt very much that the reverse button will receive much, if any, use from me. ( edit - My choice of Vicmarc was because of its M33 x 3.5 spindle thread, robust construction, mass, superb VS and its origins as a Queensland manufacturer. Not the reversing feature!)

How many turners will abandon using the safety collar because they are fiddly to remove? How many are using them all the time?

Well after listening to the comments and actually getting to have a go on a few different lathes...
I went with the Woodfast C100X.
It arrived on Thurs night and I had it assembled and running early Sat morning.

Obviously chalk and cheese compared to my old X150 which is still a good lathe.
But, the new one has better and more features.
It is SOOOOOOO QUIET!!!!
It is so steady.


It came reasonably quickly (well that is the story from TOLL express).
Was very well crated up, so no damage.


A photo of it in place.

Originally Posted by Lyle

....
It is SOOOOOOO QUIET!!!!
It is so steady.


It came reasonably quickly (well that is the story from TOLL express).
Was very well crated up, so no damage.
.......

And a spotless clean floor.

That's how it was for me when I upgraded to a new lathe.

Clean floor. Clean mind.
But will not be for long. I have a few jobs lined up that the old lathe wouldn't let me do.

Well, I didn't read the second page before I made this post, so I think I may need to qualify what I've posted by saying I'm not trying to cause trouble here. I just didn't know there were so many reasons why one shouldn't turn in reverse. I never thought much about it, but I did recognize inherent problems doing so. I just installed the grub screws and did it. I've never had any trouble with turning in reverse, and haven't damaged my spindle, because I use a spindle adapter (which has two grub screws in it)... and as far as I know, I've never damaged it, either.
My post:
I can understand wanting to reverse turn to sand a piece, but I also reverse turn when I'm hollowing most pieces, because I get tired of bending over so far for an extended period of time. For instance, when I hollowed all of those Bristlecone Pine pieces, I turned in reverse, after I reached a depth of about 2 - 3 inches (about 6 or 7 centimeters?). That way I don't have to lean so far over the lathe bed to cut on the inside left -- instead, I can sit on my high stool, and turn on the right inside of the piece.
I do use Supernova 2 chucks, which have grub screws on their inserts, and I drilled and tapped the inserts, (on one of the spanner flats) so I could put in a grub screw there, also.
Hope I haven't curled anyone's hair..
Allen

Originally Posted by Old Croc

Not on this side of the pond oreos. A lot of induction motors with a starting switch cannot, unless you get a motor rewinder to dig out all the connections and wire them up to a special multi switch. Cap start which are becoming more common are easy to do.
rgds,
Crocy.

I did not mean to imply that it was easy. With a little effort and some understanding it is not difficult to do. As you mentioned the leads need to be found and hooked up properly but it does not take a rewinder to do it. The leads are always lashed last to the outside of the windings so they are easy to access with the end bell off.

I'm about to upgrade a new lathe, and all the info are valuable. Thanks all
All I'm concerned is safety. Probably I'll get non-reverse and stand on other side of the lathe when sanding )

For those who wish to use a grub screw:

I took a Sorby chuck with a 5/8 inch plain hole and 1/4 20 grub screw to a machinist to have it bored out and threaded to 1 inch X 8 TPI.

As the grub screw was located in the threaded area, he supplied me with a brass pellet and instructed me to thread on the chuck, drop the pellet into the grub screw hole, then put in the grub screw.

That, or a brass grub screw would keep from damaging the spindle thread or the register area.