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  1. #1
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    Default Practicalities of freehand sharpening spindle gouges

    Good morning all,

    As a brand new owner of a lathe, I need to learn to sharpen my gouges and am trying to investigate the practicalities of learning to sharpen freehand (with a platform). Online searches have not proven very helpful as almost all content is skewed to jigs. Is that because it's the only practical solution for hobbyists, or just the dominance of commercial interest generated content and the "maker" echo chamber?

    I know there are professionals who don't use jigs, but is it achievable for hobbyists too, who may only use the lathe once a fortnight(ish)?

    I freehand sharpen my plane and chisel blades, so am happy putting in time to learn, but on the other hand I have no philosophical aversion to jigs. My concern is that if we're supposed to be sharpening turning chisels every five minutes or so, wouldn't a jig become tedious after a while?

    Any and all thoughts and opinions would be greatly appreciated as I investigate this new aspect of woodworking.

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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanceC View Post
    Is that because it's the only practical solution for hobbyists, or just the dominance of commercial interest generated content and the "maker" echo chamber?
    Why do people want to use jigs? Good question. I suspect it's partly often for the same reason that one of the first things they do on purchasing a new lathe is run out and buy a scroll chuck.

    ie. They have a new toy and want to be 'productive' with it NOW, without taking the time to learn the basics that imo would actually be beneficial in the long term.

    Of course, it's also easier to get an acceptable result for most gouge profiles.

    I do not class myself as a professional; there may be months between my uses of the lathe (or months of continuous use! ) but I freehand sharpen most of the time.

    Mainly because by the time I have the jig set up to the specs of a specific tool's grind, I could've already touched up the tool and been back having fun on the lathe. I like turning, not sharpening.

    I know of a few people who have set up their jig in one setting and grind all their tools to those specs. I do not consider that a good idea, it doesn't make the most out of the different tool types.

    Also, I have a couple of gouge profiles that a jig just won't replicate. A jig tends to work by rotating the tool left/right around a pivot point. ie. swinging the handle side to side. The grinds I have in mind are obtained by holding the tool straight on to the wheel and 'rolling' the whole tool clock-/anti-clockwise, while moving the cutting point up and down the wheel. Hard to put into words, but it's quite a different process.

    A jig can approximate these grinds to a degree, but will never quite get them the same as the 'grind marks' left by the wheel are oriented almost 90 degrees out..

    Now, I DO use a jig on some of my tools; a couple of rather expensive gouges with extreme fingernail profiles which I use exclusively for finishing and/or difficult cuts. These I'll use the jig on, as A) it can save a bit on steel, B) it is difficult to get the same edge freehand and C) I know the result is consistent... for a difficult cut I don't want to spend even a second or two effing around getting the 'feel' of the new edge if I didn't freehand just right.

    Basically, I'm saying that a jig has it's place in my tool-box. But I do not use it as a matter of course unless I have good reason to.

    Freehand sharpening IS a skill that's worth learning and it really doesn't take that long to pick up. Although your tools may be quite a bit shorter before you're happy with your consistency
    I may be weird, but I'm saving up to become eccentric.

    - Andy Mc

  4. #3
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    Been turning for many many years and tried to learn hand sharpening gouges but never really got the hang of it. No matter how I practice I have never got a smooth unfacetted face on a spindle/bowl gouge. Perhaps an uncoordinated doof but that's the way it is. To me jigs are worth even penny, be it home made or bought ones, they save time and your tool's life.
    Neil
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  5. #4
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    Jigs have a place but they cannot produce every grind possible. Its also a horses for courses thing as well, using a jig to maintain bowl gouges does become tedious when rough turning bowl blanks that contain foreign objects or have a high silica content.

    Jigs really come into their own for maintaining the "finishing" gouges & skews etc. A decent set of diamond honing plates also reduces the time spent at the grinder as an edge on a hollow grind can be quickly touched up many times before another trip to the grinder is required.

    I can sharpen freehand but I much prefer to use jigs - specifically the Heligrind Jig for "fingernail" grinds on spindle & detail gouges plus Tormek's range of jigs for the majority of the other wood turning tools. Jigs produce a consistent, and very repeatable grind every time IF they are set correctly for the settings on each tool. One huge bonus for me is the compatibility of the Tormek and Heligrind mount setups.

    There is still a learning curve with jigs, but it is much shorter than for freehand grinding and uses far less tool steel.

    The initial outlay on jigs is an enormous drawback for most turners with limited means but imo well worth the cost in the longer term.
    Mobyturns

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  6. #5
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    I'm predominantly a jig man. I also use a lathe very intermittently so that the muscle memory needed to work the tool is never quite there. If I was also hand sharpening I likely would be altering the tool characteristics enough to make gaining the muscle memory a moving target.

    An advantage of hand sharpening though is that you can customise your tools for a specific purpose. Years ago I watched a demonstration by the late Gordon Ward on hollow vessel turning; his gouge was profiled differently on either side, each grind was optimised for a specific purpose.

    If you do choose to go down the hand way I recommend you purchase a couple of cheap tools to practice your technique on. A couple of times I've re-profiled some fingernail gouges for other people and nearly cried at the volume of HSS I was turning to dust in rectifying their attempts.
    Nothing succeeds like a budgie without a beak.

  7. #6
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    My turning is described as a as required basis. Ie when i need some knobs for drawers or when the urge arises. Which is probably once a month if that. So take my input with a grain of salt.

    When i first started turning i didn't have a grinder or jigs and would sharpen my turning tools with diamond paddles. Extremely slow but doable if you're on top of your sharpening regime, once i got myself a grinder i tried freehand sharpening for some time and as mentioned above ended up chewing alot of metal off my chisels, before i bit the bullet and purchased a fairly decent selection of tormek jigs and tool rests.

    This enabled me to do the following
    - Try different tool grinds to see which one i preferred
    - Sharpen consistently and very quickly takes about 5 minutes to setup and and sharpen
    - Experience the difference between a blunt, average and sharp tool

    Without the jigs i would have been very hesitant to try different grind angles/profiles as i know my tools would be stubs if i did

    Downside of jigs is
    - The expense of not only the jigs but the investment if you tried learning to sharpen freehand.
    - If you use an array of tools, setting up the jigs can be time consuming, but i've learnt to freehand sharpen some tools and use jigs for others which saves time
    - As others have mentioned not all profiles can be replicated, but for my needs that hasn't been an issue, but at the same time i don't necessarily know what i'm missing out on either by not having access/ knowledge to these profiles.
    - Still require a small learning curve, but not as steep as freehand

    In a nutshell, if you're willing to chew up a few chisels to try your hand at hand sharpening or have access to a knowledgeable turner i'd def give freehand sharpening a go. On the other hand if you've got the funds and want to just get turning and don't care for the sharpening side or don't necessarily see yourself being a pro turner jigs are worth every penny.

  8. #7
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    I have been sharpening turning chisels for 45 years free hand, no different to sharpening your planes blades etc. just a matter of practice, I can't imagine why you would need to sharpen chisels every 5 minutes unless you are doing something very wrong

  9. #8
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    Scrapers often need to be sharpened every few minutes.

  10. #9
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    Sometime back I cut the tendon in the left hand index finger, the repair left the finger with little feeling. I used the finger against the grinder tool rest as a gauge, making tool grinding difficult. On a suggestion from a friend, I made the two "jigs" from wood. The threads were cut with a standard 10mm metal threading tap, and pieces of 10mm bolt used as the screws.

    This one was used for the skew. The slot in the centre was formed by gluing two pieces together with a piece a fraction thicker than the skew and cut at an angle to suit the skew, often at 20 degrees. The "screw" is tightened to hold the skew firmly, in a position to rub on the edge of the grinder tool rest. The block is about 75mm x 50mm x 19 thick.

    Skew jig.jpg


    This one is round block about 75mm diameter and 19mm thick with a hole in he middle slightly larger than the gouge. Used for grinding a spindle gouge. It also is positioned on the gouge and held firmly with the "screw". The tool is held in line and in front of the grinder. Bowl gouges can be done with this "jig" but will need a grinder tool rest with a curved, radius, front edge on the grinder.

    Gouge jig.jpg

    I found these very useful and effective and cheap. Any number can be made as required to suit various tools. Not an ideal set up, but will give a beginner an understanding of the process that can lead to freehand grinding.

    Jim
    Sometimes in the daily challenges that life gives us, we miss what is really important...

  11. #10
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    Im a self taught wood turner and I found videos by Stuart Batty very helpful. He is a professional turner who seemed to turn professional presenter and I found a wealth of information in his presentations including freehand bowl gouge sharpening.
    The link below will take you to a collection of his videos including a couple on sharpening.
    SB Tools on Vimeo

    I sharpen the primary bevel freehand and then use the tormek jig for the secondary bevel. Doesn't matter if the primary bevel is a bit variable as the tool is riding on the secondary bevel. No jig can accurately reproduce the grind that Stuart Batty describes and learning to sharpen freehand would be an advantage.
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  12. #11
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    Stuart Batty, who certainly is one of the top guns of woodturning actually recommends learning how to sharpen from Cindy Drozda. She sharpens all her tools, spindle and bowl gouges, skews, and scrapers, freehand on a rest.

    Her video is here YouTube

    I've chosen to learn freehand turning, mostly because I'm a cheapskate who doesn't want to spend any more than I have to. I probably wouldn't adopt a jig now if the finances permitted it. Freehand turning is not hard, you just need too practice.

    If you do decide to try freehand make sure you get a decent rest to work with. What comes standard on most grinders are useless. I use one of these Chisel Grinding Jig | Carbatec, about the cheapest I could find which didn't wobble. Even if you decide to use a jig you'll still want a decent tool rest for some tools.

    Either way, don't be afraid to seek out help from other turners, find your local club. Just remember, if you ask ten turners, you'll get eleven answers.

    Cheers
    Redbeard

    Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk

    Cheers
    Redbeard

  13. #12
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    Thank-you all for your well considered responses. I must admit that my head is spinning a little with so much new information and considerations.

    I am buoyed by the number of normal people who are free hand sharpening. I hear the advice that a jug still has its place even in hand sharpener's sheds and this is helpful, knowing that it is not an either/or decision in many cases. I think I will initially take the path of least resistance and start out free hand sharpening. If/when I feel the need I will add a jig to the toolkit, I will do so.

    The other factor at play is that as mentioned in other posts, my family is also dead keen on the lathe. In fact my son (who had done some turning at school) spent a good hour on the lathe last night. If sharpening is going to be an impediment to them using the lathe more then adding a jig to the box of tricks becomes a no brainer.

    Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.

  14. #13
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    I just noticed this so a bit late. I am mostly freehand with turning tools also. Like Skew said jigs take too much time setting up. I have some jigs for the wet grinder but seldom use them. A regular turning task can use a few different tools that need different jigs so you are always setting up. Freehand the only setup is the angle of the rest and I adjust that so the bevel sits flat on the wheel. The youtube clip explains it better than I can. I have the carbatec rest Redbeard pointed out also. I also have a wood one I made for the other wheel of the grinder. You do need an adjustable rest as the rests that grinders come with useless for this.
    Regards
    John

    PS I got a lot of good info from this site when I was starting out. Some cheap to make jigs too.
    Wood Turning Lathe tips, techniques, instruction

  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbeard View Post
    If you do decide to try freehand make sure you get a decent rest to work with. What comes standard on most grinders are useless. I use one of these Chisel Grinding Jig | Carbatec, about the cheapest I could find which didn't wobble. Even if you decide to use a jig you'll still want a decent tool rest for some tools.
    Hi Redbeard, I've been meaning to respond to this for a while, but whenever I was in the shed I never had my phone with me to take the required photo.

    The tool rest I currently have is pretty rubbish. It's similar to yours, but too large. I bought it a couple of years ago for use when grinding chisels and plane blades. It's a $50 item from Timbercon. Over time the shafts for both the upper and lower pivot points loosened, which meant that as I tightened them, the whole pin rotated and didn't allow a locking tension to be applied. I solved it with some threaded rod and nuts. While it now gets very tight, it no longer allows for simple angle changeing.

    The biggest problem however is that it's too wide for turning chisels. As per the photos below, I'm unable to maintain contact with the wheel. So it would need modification, or replacement.

    20200603_103519.jpg 20200603_103539.jpg 20200603_103734.jpg

    I found the Oneway Wolverine platform at a good price, so have purchased that, and will be done with messing about with poor sharpening platforms.

  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanceC View Post
    Hi Redbeard, I've been meaning to respond to this for a while, but whenever I was in the shed I never had my phone with me to take the required photo.

    The tool rest I currently have is pretty rubbish. It's similar to yours, but too large. I bought it a couple of years ago for use when grinding chisels and plane blades. It's a $50 item from Timbercon. Over time the shafts for both the upper and lower pivot points loosened, which meant that as I tightened them, the whole pin rotated and didn't allow a locking tension to be applied. I solved it with some threaded rod and nuts. While it now gets very tight, it no longer allows for simple angle changeing.

    The biggest problem however is that it's too wide for turning chisels. As per the photos below, I'm unable to maintain contact with the wheel. So it would need modification, or replacement.

    20200603_103519.jpg 20200603_103539.jpg 20200603_103734.jpg

    I found the Oneway Wolverine platform at a good price, so have purchased that, and will be done with messing about with poor sharpening platforms.
    Lance

    Here's my theory. After reading and watching lots of the serious turners on YouTube I've formed the opinion we can do most (not all...) of our sharpening at probably two different angles. My preferred spindle tool is the skew chisel which I sharpen at 20° on both sides and on bowls I primarily use a 40/40 grind.

    Therefore if I had a grinder with a rest fixed at 40° and a rest fixed at 20° I could do most of my sharpening without a thought. I also use the 40° angle for many spindle gouges, parting tools. I do however, use other angles, 50-60° for bottom feeder gouges, 30° for detail gouges, that sort of thing.

    Based on this I reckon if I had a grinder devoted only to sharpening my turning tools I would have a table fixed, probably permanently, at 40° and an adjustable one which would live most of its life at 20°.

    Of course, if I had the money I would just buy one of these Robo Rest F (free standing) — Reed's Woodworking and never think of these things again.

    Cheers
    Redbeard

    Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk

    Cheers
    Redbeard

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