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Thread: Round windows, work in progress.
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19th April 2014, 09:59 PM #1GOLD MEMBER
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Round windows, work in progress.
Lost count of how many of these I have made for various joinery's and individuals over the years however current renovations on my own place require some new windows so the decision has been made to make some round ones. Firstly cause I can, secondly it'd be nice to have some for prospective clients to see so they get an idea of what they might hopefully be buying.
This thread will explain how to go about making them.
So the mission is 2 window frames of 1 metre dia, made from western red cedar....a proven weather hardy timber.
First step is to draw an accurate section.
DSCF3725.JPG
You might want to click on picture to get a better view. The window frame will be made up of 4 rows of segments, each row with 8 segments. For smaller windows you can get away with 6 segments per row but as western red cedar is generally available in 150mm x 45mm boards we are going with 8 segments per row.
Once the drawing is done the next step is to make a template so the segments can be cut out. A trammel set is the ideal tool for this, its sort of like a big pair of dividers on a stick. I am marking it out on a 3mm bit of MDF. 3mm has been added to the finished outside diameter and subtracted from the inside diameter so that there is a turning and construction allowance to achieve the 1metre final diameter.
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The template is cut out and then disc sanded as accurately as possible.
Since the final width of the window frame is 140mm the cedar boards have been machined to 35.5mm thick (35.5 x 4 rows of segments=142mm). This will give a turning allowance of approx 2mm.
DSCF3729.JPG
Template is then used to mark out the 64 segments required for each window.2 segments fit comfortably across a 150mm wide board.
Then it's a matter of bandsawing each segment out cutting as close to the line as you can on the inside and outside diameters.
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The ends of each segment are cut slightly oversize....say 1-2mm.This leaves room for fitting together later.
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Here are the 64 segments eagerly awaiting construction
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Next step is to select a suitable sized faceplate. I have several for different sized windows
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ranging from 1200mm to about 600mm dia. This one is a tad over 1 metre so its ideal.
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It's good practice to true up the face so its nice and flat. Faceplates like these tend to warp a bit over time when unused. No need to true up the whole face, just where you will be working. A straight edge confirms its true.
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Then the diameters of the segment are marked on the faceplate while the lathe is spinning with the trammels.This gives a precise marking of where the segments will be built up.
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Now we are ready to build up the segments. As each segment end is disc sanded to fit its a good idea to set up the faceplate in a horizontal position near the disc sander. (saves on walking).
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Note the pack of pinchdogs on faceplate centre. The first row of segments are disc sanded on the ends for a good fit and then skew nailed with panel pins on the inside diameter only. This first row will have the rebate for the glass turned out of it so the nail holes will disappear on the end job.
DSCF3744.JPG
This picture shows first segment skew nailed to the face plate smack bang in the diameter lines that were marked previously. The second segment is then disc sanded on the end so that it fits the first one (thats where the 1-2mm allowance when bandsawing the segment ends works a treat). A good old pinchdog is then hammered in to clamp the first segment to the next so that the second one can be skew nailed in place. Then its just a matter of continuing on. When you get to the last segment of the row one end is disc sanded so that it corresponds nicely to the first segment.
DSCF3745.JPG
OOPS Righty ho! seems I have reached the limit of how many pictures you can up load here. Will post this and continue shortly.
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19th April 2014, 11:09 PM #2GOLD MEMBER
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Now where were we?
Yes! the last segment of the first row.
Once the last segment has been disc sanded to correspond with the first one you can mark the final cut from the underside.Then its bandsawn and sanded for a mighty tight fit.
DSCF3746.JPG
You might have noticed the slithers of newspaper that have been placed under the segment glue joints. These are to stop the frame from sticking to the face plate with excess glue. Anyway we now have the first row of segments built up.
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The second row happens next and it goes pretty well like the first except these ones are screwed down as well. The screws on the first row are put in further towards the outside diameter as the rebate for the glass needs to be turned on the inside diameter and you dont want to come across the screws when turning.
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When you see glue squished out of the whole joint line when you put em in you know it will make for a good joint.
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Then the 3rd row.
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And lastly the 4th row.
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Because the 4th and final row will be visible on the inside of the room when finished the screw holes are countersunk with a 10mm dowell drill so that they can be plugged later on. All the previous screw holes were roughly countersunk with a hand countersink gouge as they wont be seen.
So here it is, window number one built up. Ready to turn after glue dries. One more to build up first beforehand.
If anyone is still awake? I have used Kliebeit 303 glue which is a highly water resistant glue. You could of course use epoxy but it stinks and is not nice to use.
Will post the turning process after I build up the next one.......It might be a week or two as I have impatient clients wanting other jobs urgently which is always nice.
To finish, this build up process took a pretty casual day, if you were hard pressed and got up at a "Sparrows" you could probably build both windows up in a day but hey, this is Tasmania!
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20th April 2014, 08:47 AM #3Skwair2rownd
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A very thorough WIP you have going here Bodger!!!
I await the final product with interest.
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20th April 2014, 10:13 AM #4GOLD MEMBER
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wow very interesting! what sort of lathe will you be turning it on? I'm not a fan of the dust off W.R.C with out fail my nose will run! as you mentioned great for out doors! can't wait to see the end result!
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20th April 2014, 11:04 AM #5
Hi Bodger
I appreciate that you have access to a very large faceplate -- but why use a lathe when a router and template would seem a much quicker and simpler optionregards from Alberta, Canada
ian
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20th April 2014, 01:59 PM #6GOLD MEMBER
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thanks for this post keep them coming
Some people are like slinkies - not really good for anything, but they
bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs .
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20th April 2014, 03:52 PM #7
Is this Curved Molding calculator of any use in working out possible segment sizes?
http://www.blocklayer.com/Curved-Molding.aspx
If it is, could it be modified to better suit circular window frames?
:
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20th April 2014, 09:22 PM #8GOLD MEMBER
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Built up the second window frame today, in just under 4 hours. It went a bit quicker as face plate had been trued,work station was all in place and everything primed to go.
DSCF3761.JPG
Just to back peddle for a bit, I meant to have the following shot included in previous post regarding the last segment in each row. The pinchdogs by design pull one bit of timber to another so when you get to the last segment of each row notice how they are angled inwards. This pulls the final segment towards the inside of the frame, preventing a sort of "tug o war" between the two dogs. I have used a couple of smaller ones here...."pinchpuppies".
DSCF3747-2.jpg
Now on to the questions...
Chuck1
The lathe is one that had been specially made inhouse at the Montpellier foundry and engineering works in Hobart for their pattern shop. I bought it at auction when the place closed down somewhere around 1988 ish.
It's a cracking lathe with heavy duty bearings. Thread for faceplates is 1 1/2 inch which is bigger than the wadkin pattern lathes. You can turn up to 800mm dia on the inside and outboard up to 2.2 metres dia. My largest faceplate for outside work is 1200mm dia but if needed it would not be a problem to make a bigger one. Longest spindle length is close to 2.2 metres (wadkin wins in that respect). I am not convinced with the tailstock design on this one but it has never let me down.
It's got 8 speeds, the slowest is really slow. I'm only guessing here but I reckon somewhere between 100-200rpm. Which makes it ideal for larger faceplate work.
I think it's a nice touch that its got an on off switch on both ends of the lathe as well.
DSCF3762.JPGDSCF3764.JPGDSCF3765.JPGDSCF3763.JPG
Also shows great insight in construction when you look at the pulleys, there are spare belts mounted inside the bearings so if a belt lets go you dont have to disassemble everything to change it.....that is pretty cool.
Ian, I find your question a little perplexing regarding a router and template being a much quicker and simpler solution.
In a nutshell, I guess it comes down to training.
I served my patternmaking apprenticeship for a company in Sydney that made mining equipment. They made seriously big stuff. They had a hydraulically powered faceplate lathe that was capable of turning enormous patterns (makes mine seem like a miniature). I got my fair share of work on it and saw lots of other things turned by other fellow workers on it. All made pretty well to the tee by the method I have described previously. Also at Sydney technical college(probably now TAFE), that's the way we were taught to make such things, was never urged to use a router and template at work or tech. Several years later when studying "furniture design" at the Uni of Tasmania one of the lecturers bought in a round window he had made with a router. He had made it from plywood and then veneered the visible surfaces. It looked pretty good and was of a similar design to the one I have been posting about(reasonably square in section). It must have had some sort of rebate in it for the glass to fit into, can't remember clearly. When he was describing the lengths he had gone to make it,jigs,templates,etc my thoughts were struth! wouldn't it be easier to turn the thing?
Perhaps one of the advantages of using the segmented and turned method is that it has a more flexible adaptation to the particular design of the desired window, for example when you look at a window like these two img039.jpg
Or perhaps this oneimg040.jpg
Or to a slightly lesser extent this one img041.jpg where the section of the window is also close to round,well, I invite you to make one similar and much quicker with your router and to get an A1 finish that sanding on a lathe will give.
I did not state that making one this way was the only or best way to go about it. Am happy to be convinced otherwise.
If you asked a blacksmith to make you one they would surely use metal. A fibreglasser would probably use fibreglass. That's what they have been trained in.
Don't mean to sound arrogant here Ian, just an honest answer to your question.
Cheers
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21st April 2014, 08:58 AM #9
Wow, this is a different thread to the usual offerings, keep going, very interested and thanks
Sincerely
Willy
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21st April 2014, 07:50 PM #10
This is wonderful stuff, a nice change to bowls, bowls and more bowls.
I'm watching with great interest... as a mate of mine is about to start on a roundel window (a bullseye in a brick-wall) and odds are good I'll be asked to make the frame, so your posts have turned up in a very timely manner for me.
I love the idea of using pinch-dogs like that. Much quicker & simpler than holding with wooden blocks! Now I'll have to try to source some...
The only part I'm not sure about is the beading to retain the glass. Do you make your own, bend straight lengths or possibly turn a solid "donut" to slip in instead?
(I'm thinking that the outside architrave could double as beading to simplify things, depending on how deeply the glass is recessed. )
- Andy Mc
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21st April 2014, 10:44 PM #11GOLD MEMBER
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Hi Skewdamn
Nice to hear the thread comes at a useful time.
There are 2 joinery's here in Hobart who I make the bulk of these windows for, both specialise in cedar windows.
The joinery who gives me the most work don't ask for any beading, the other one usually does......so I ether make them up some mini segments (thin ones) that they must tack on to the outside of the glass or I at least give them a template so they can cut their own to the right size.
The joinery who does not ask for any simply uses silicone.
I have already put one smaller round window (that I had kicking about) in the room where the 2 in this thread are also going to go. I used silicone to stick the glass to the internal window frame rebate and when that had dried used what they call in the pattern trade a "fillet rubber" and a bit of masking tape to apply a neat 1/4 radius of silicone to the outside of the glass. It's worked a treat.
As the 2 windows in this thread are going into the same room I would be happy to show the installation as well as the making. There should not be any need for external or internal architraves.
Cheers
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26th April 2014, 11:39 AM #12GOLD MEMBER
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Artful,
Thanks for the tutorial on round windows. I'm most impressed with your lathe. It appears to be cut out of steel plate then welded together and machined. Any idea of the weight?So much timber, so little time.
Paul
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26th April 2014, 11:00 PM #13China
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A interesting alternative method to the traditional procedure of window construction
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27th April 2014, 10:35 AM #14
As other have said, great post AB!
Very instructive WIP set showing a nice combination of disciplines, including band-saw work, joinery, segmenting and of course turning. Most impressive. Gives me some ideas of my own as I have stacks of Western Red in various sizes all reclaimed - much of it large section-sizes from big door jambs etc. Just goes to show - never throw anything out.
Looks like something I could do on the Hegner VB36.... if I ever get it out it's packing crate.
WayneDon't Just Do It.... Do It HardenFast!!
Regards - Wayne
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27th April 2014, 10:48 PM #15GOLD MEMBER
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Hi Paul. The lathe is indeed fabricated out of steel, not cast.
Had a bit of a closer look today armed with a rule and I can tell you that the bed of the lathe is made from right angle steel that in section measures 150mm x150mm x 15mm thick. The bed has not been machined, as I guess the steel was true enough in the first place.
As for the weight? that's a tough one....
I had it delivered on a truck that had a crane on it. The truck driver managed to just get it in the workshop and push it in a bit with the crane. Its stayed in the same spot ever since, apart from jacking it up a bit to get the bed level to compensate for the un-level concrete slab. No way I could lift one end of it or move it at all by myself.
Also I don't have a set of scales that could weigh it. I do have however a set of wool bale scales, so for interest sakes weighed the tail stock today. It weighed 112 lbs or 51 kilos.
Hi hardenfast
Quote/ "Gives me some ideas of my own as I have stacks of Western Red in various sizes all reclaimed - much of it large section-sizes from big door jambs etc. Just goes to show - never throw anything out."
Yeah, its a bit of a bonus that you can use off cuts from other jobs to make these things, for this window the offcuts only need to be about 400mm long. Reckon there would be window manufacturers out there who would sling bits that length into the dumpster without a seconds thought.
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