Thread: The tamed skew

Hi F&E,

I didn't want to come across as a closed minded purist. I am very much of the belief that turners should use whatever works best for them to get the results they want. If this tool is easier for a beginner to use and gets a good finish then I am all for it.

Can you post some photos of the tool in action so I can see how you are presenting the edge to the work?

Many thanks.

Steve

No problem Steve. These are old shots with a prototype (post #30)

www.woodworkforums.com/f8/why-how-square-insert-works-107163/

It also shows some of the blind alleys I explored during the process...

Frank, I applaud your posting a thoughtful and scholarly piece.

It needs a matched response and I will give it when I have time.

There are just some immediate reactions I have, based on using a skew in my amateur fashion and using the EWT Easy detailer (a 'diamond' shaped TCT cutter).

For some forms you need crisp separations. Eg., a V cut is just that; not a V with a rounded bottom. And where you have say a bead running down to a fillet, the junction is square or close to it.

You can't do this with the Easy Detailer since the tip is rounded. From what little I know, TCT is brittle and a point would readily break.

As for beads themselves, they can be cut with a 'diamond' shaped TCT tip or a skew or a spindle/detail gouge with an acute bevel angle. If you want adjacent beads, you're in trouble with the first and the third since there's not the clearance and/or a distinct separation. In any case, IME all three methods take practise to develop the skill. In terms of finish, on fast growth pine, IME there's not much between them, assuming fresh cutting edges.

Planing cuts, again, there are a variety of methods: roughing gouge at a skewed angle; skew chisel; square ended chisel used lightly or slightly skewed in presentation; slightly radiused 'square' TCT cutter; forged spindle gouge. With skill and a fresh cutting edge, IME there's not that much between them.

The key in general to a good finish with a TCT cutter is the quality of the edge. As posted in my thread on the Easy Wood Tools, a polished bevel on the Easy Finisher produced a very good finish, and the finish off a fresh Rougher edge was also very good.

But in terms of the range of forms that a skew can produce, a rounded tip diamond or triangle TCT cutter just isn't in the race.

And for most turners, the method of both rehabbing and polishing a TCT edge is far too demanding. A skew on the other hand is relatively speaking a walk in the park.

But let me say again, these are just off the cuff comments and not a properly considered response to your document.

Thanks Ern, much appreciated.

The cutters I use do have acute corners, not rounded, therefore that aspect is covered. Following 's comment and yours, I'll try to document photographically a clean V and a bead running down to a fillet.

Here they are. Quick and dirty, no pretence of good turning of the 2mm beads. At 30x the bottom of the V and the square transition to the fillet are impeccable.

Well you have one up on the other TCT tip suppliers in that case. Well done.

Would just make another point, given I'm just out of the shed getting the hang of turning with a new lathe.

The thing about a skew, or indeed a gouge or a device with the bevel above like a Munro or Proforme, is as has already been alluded to that the bevel provides guidance.

These are if you like 'self-jigging' tools.

Shaping the outside of a Box Elder bowl, I could get a better line and finish with a gouge than with a scraper at a skew angle. And as a 'play piece' I gave each type of tool a good run.

Just my 2 bob's worth.

Your mileage may vary.

Issatree would clearly think so.

Thanks Ern. I am not sure I have interpreted "the bevel provides guidance" correctly, but I think we are now getting into the technical discussion that I purposefully left out of the document to get the basic principles sorted out first. I believe you refer (as clarified in another thread where I asked for his guidance) to the need to maintain a sufficient support band under the cutting edge, which is achieved by minimizing the clearance angle. This is not affected by the width of the sharpening angle (one can't go less than zero), what is affected is the rake angle, which is (90 minus sharpening angle minus clearance angle) degrees.

So, assuming an optimal clearance angle of, say, 2 degrees, the difference between using a 44 degrees instead of a 25 degrees sharpening angle is that the maximum rake angle achievable is 90-44-2=44 degrees instead of 90-25-2=63 degrees.

That is why one can scrape with a skew but can't really cut with a scraper.

The combination of this fact with the side rake achievable with the geometry of the square insert is what produces the advantages and disadvantages that are the subject of this discussion.

If you were talking about something else, Ern, please put me back on track...

Why exactly do you feel the need to argue that this tool is better than everything else?

I personally thing "purists" know stuff worth knowing.

Originally Posted by tea lady

Why exactly do you feel the need to argue that this tool is better than everything else?

I personally thing "purists" know stuff worth knowing.

Because I am an egomaniac?

Jokes aside, I am not arguing that, I suspect you have not read my paper.

Being a "purist" is a matter of choice, knowledge is not the issue. Today's innovation is tomorrow's conservative view. What works stands the test of time and what does not, does not.

Originally Posted by Frank&Earnest

Because I am an egomaniac?

Jokes aside, I am not arguing that, I suspect you have not read my paper.

Being a "purist" is a matter of choice, knowledge is not the issue. Today's innovation is tomorrow's conservative view. What works stands the test of time and what does not, does not.

Yes well! My eyes do glaze over when I see fields of type, but I think I got the salient points. Not sure if I'd hold that finial up as a prime example of the type. It is screaming out for a decent skew chisel to make the bottom of the V cuts into something more suited to the name "v". Your tool may get into the corner of a flat bottomed bowl well, but so does an 8mm parting tool, which I also like to use as a really short fat screw on occasion. And nothing quite hogs out a bowl as fast as a half decent bowl gouge. If you are getting a ripply surface you are doing it wrong. Anyway, ripples are easier to sand out that tear-out. And you can do shear scraping with a bowl gouge. making it even easier to sand out the ripples left behind.

Anyway, thats my 2 cents. (From one who has also actually used a C1 rougher at least. On something that actually blunts them a darn sight quicker that 8 to 10 hours. )

Yes, I do accept that my poor technique is not adequate to show the tool at its best.
And yes, there are other tools that can do the job even better in particular circumstances. I have already said that, maybe your eyes gazed over that part.
Also, as said before, my tool is not a C1, the performance of that tool should not be taken as an indication of the performance of mine.

Why exactly do you feel the need to argue that this tool can't fulfil a useful purpose?

Always eager to learn, though.

Maybe my expectations are too low and I am letting beginners down suggesting that they should be happy with something I deem not sublime but acceptable.

What's wrong with the V cuts of the finial, and how can they be made "into something more suited to the name "v" ? They look fine to me even at 30x. If there are poor ones, that's my fault, not the tool's.

Originally Posted by Frank&Earnest

Why exactly do you feel the need to argue that this tool can't fulfil a useful purpose?

It is prolly useful somewhere! But you seem to be arguing that it is better than whole stack of other tools, and anyone who doesn't think so is derided as a purest.

The sharper edge of your tips will prolly chip off quite quickly in the application and I use them for. And still won't be sharp enough for some other applications. (Like turning finials out of desert timber, or turning Radiatta pine. )

Originally Posted by tea lady

It is prolly useful somewhere! But you seem to be arguing that it is better than whole stack of other tools, and anyone who doesn't think so is derided as a purest.

The sharper edge of your tips will prolly chip off quite quickly in the application and I use them for. And still won't be sharp enough for some other applications. (Like turning finials out of desert timber, or turning Radiatta pine. )

O dear... I have never argued that it is better, I argue that it can do passably and more easily the job of a whole stack of other tools. And I would never deride anybody for their choices, however opposite to mine. I am quite happy to deride bigots of any description, though, be it for tools, politics, religion or whatever form of belief...

BTW, that finial is desert timber (Western Myall).