Thread: Using Spindle Roughing Gouge

P&N make a 22mm bowl gouge for roughing bowl blanks, I have a 19mm Kelton Bowl gouge for the same duty. SRG's are just too dangerous for that task. You might get away with it for months then you may end in hospital having surgery to fix up injuries sustained by misuse of a tool. For me, it is a enjoyable hobby that does not entail reckless endangerment of myself. The right tool for the right job.

Originally Posted by pommyphil

So..... do we classify the 32mm P&N SRG ( milled from 32mm round bar) as an enormous bowl gouge ( at an enormous price!)

If it were 32mm all the way back and 200mm into a big hunk of timber with a steel ferrule and a mild swept back grind. Yes. I don't think you could keep a blank in the chuck or on the faceplate if you were to use the big gouge to its full capability.

It is necked down and if you were hogging out a 600mm bowl on your 3 HP lathe and had a catch it might break the tang or tear it out of the handle.

Waggasteve & Luke, you are both presumed adults and can do anything you wish. If you are going to do experiments that might be risky, it would be good to have someone around in case you need medical care.

The spindle roughing gouge has a reduced tang, as in its intended use the forces are not so great. With larger spindles as Retired made, 8.9 meters long and 300mm diameter, he would break the tangs on his spindle gouges. He would weld nice big tangs on and put on big fat handles. See: http://www.ubeaut.com.au/.htm

One could probably get away with facing off a bowl blank with a spindle roughing gouge. If you were to use the SRG for rounding off the outside rim by coming in from the edge you will likely have an interrupted cut which will put more stress on the tang, and as the SRG is capable of taking a bigger bite, it might knock the blank out of the chuck or off the face plate.

Using a bowl gouge or 1/2 inch spindle gouge rolled over on its side, both having a mild swept back grind, start a cut on the face of a bowl blank far enough in from the rim to have timber all the way around, push toward the headstock. It makes a nice clean slice with no banging from an interrupted cut.

I make bowls, and for my limited spindle work, tool handles for my own use, I use a 5/8 inch bowl gouge or a 3/4 inch spindle gouge. I don't own a SRG.

Even with a couple years experience and carefully using a 5/8 inch bowl gouge on a rock hard piece of black locust stump that had holes and crazy grain, I had the piece come out of the the lathe three times. The first catch it broke two #10 screws and ripped out two others and flew 20 feet across the yard. Finished bowl below.

Wood turners have been killed by bowls coming out of a lathe.

http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/show...n-Kelly-passed

Originally Posted by Luke Maddux

My interpretation of ....

In the ill-fated video the guy is doing what everyone knows not to do, .....

BUT I'm still not convinced that the same violent reaction would occur ......

But what about roughing to round? It seems like you're eliminating the factors at play which make it so dangerous by not approaching the face of the blank.

Thoughts?

Luke, My thoughts, I have picked key words/phrases for comment, not to pick on you or any one in particular - just general observations on humans & woodturning.

Your interpretation is different from mine, we all interpret what we read, hear and see slightly differently but generally through our schooling and education we form common opinions and come to common conclusions. We all have different backgrounds, life experience and formal and informal education. Just because an interpretation or conclusion is common does not necessarily make it good, bad or even correct just the commonly accepted interpretation / opinion / conclusion but most likely reflects the current state of knowledge.

As for doing what "everyone knows not to do" is much the same as saying its "common sense." Unfortunately "common sense" or "everyone knows" are dangerous generalizations when it comes to hazard management - because of the above paragraph – its not so common and is not universal knowledge.

"Not being convinced" is a good attribute to have because it means one is learning about and is questioning the merits of various processes and the hazards presented through them. It can also have potential downsides if one consistently goes against the current body of knowledge. Unfortunately through many factors we have also lost some of the old skills and that "body of knowledge" (see video below). Like why we moved away from forged & tanged bowl/spindle gouges, or the benefits of using screw chucks, face plates and other work holding techniques, hand chasing threads etc.

Eliminating hazards & risk is an excellent view to have and is what we all should be attempting to achieve! As you say by learning appropriate skills and technique we can indeed use a forged & tanged bowl gouge to rough and turn bowls relatively “safely” but there are “safer” alternatives. In fact all turners did until the 1960's, when tool development changed our common opinion of what tools are "safe" to use on bowls. What we really should be thinking about now is “Are the old forged tools less hazardous i.e. "safer" than the new milled tools?” I would say on the evidence that the new milled tools win hands down on all counts - no contest!

Have a good look at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z_Ph6nZfGE – the tools & techniques are purported to be from 1926 well prior to milled bowl gouges and 4 jaw scroll chucks. At 2:42 using what we now call a “continental spindle gouge”; 3:13 clearly using a “negative rake scraper” a skew chisel on the outside of a bowl and with a “down handle” presentation; 4:41 clearly a tanged continental spindle gouge used to hollow the bowl; Now pop to 6:06 and watch the catch from the “Hook Tool” & 6:14 a skew inside a bowl. Shock horror to the naysayers today!

Yes it was done but we now have “safer options” & that is why popular opinion now is “do not use a skew or a spindle roughing gouge (SRG) on bowl blanks!”

What a FANTASTIC video Mobyturns.

Being killed on an lathe explosion is something I came close to experiencing. Its a thread here somewhere. Its not about using the wrong tool, which I won't labour, but safety. The bowl broke and half absolutely smashed me in the face. Broke the ridge between my eyes, the cartilage where it joins, split the left nostril open and the right was cut from the top right to the the edge of my face. It was a massive impact and left me stunned. Blood absolutely everywhere. Absolutely everywhere... roof, floor, walls, lathe, it even was on the table saw behind me.

It was a scene from a Tarantino film.

After it reflected off my head, it hit the roof, tore the lining and dented the metal. The roof is not fixed and is used as a constant reminder.

There are some pix of me hamming it up somewhere (even a near death experience can't knock some sensibleness into me) but it reminded me that safety is important.

It took me 6 full months to touch that lathe again. I now love it to bits.

My nose aches frequently, even tonight.

Listen to , he knows his stuff.

Originally Posted by Evanism

Being killed on an lathe explosion is something I came close to experiencing. ....

Listen to , he knows his stuff.

Unfortunately there are many stories like yours around that very few wood turners ever hear about. You are most fortunate to have not been knocked unconscious by the impact. I'm glad it has a relatively happy ending though enduring complications are never "happy" reminders.

At Turnfest a friend mentioned that fairly recently a turner in NSW was hit by a jaw from a spinning chuck. Some how it became dislodged and smacked him in the face causing significant injury.

Moby, I've had a 20" (508mm) Longsworth attached to a Titan chuck unscrew, due to the differences of deceleration of the spindle and chuck. Not a nice feeling, especially when it crushes a nearly finished burl bowl against the live centre in the tail stock. Now I manually decelerated the chuck from 500-600 rpm . . . EVS is a wonderful thing, electronic braking has it's issues, especially with larger pieces and their inherent momentum.

Originally Posted by Pat

Moby, I've had a 20" (508mm) Longsworth attached to a Titan chuck unscrew, due to the differences of deceleration of the spindle and chuck. Not a nice feeling, especially when it crushes a nearly finished burl bowl against the live centre in the tail stock. Now I manually decelerated the chuck from 500-600 rpm . . . EVS is a wonderful thing, electronic braking has it's issues, especially with larger pieces and their inherent momentum.

Pat, that is another quite common hazard. In the event I'm referring to the chuck stayed on the lathe but one jaw flew off hitting the gentleman in the forehead. Apparently after some minor treatment he was released from ED but quite some time later it was discovered that there were more serious complications from bone fractures. I don't have full details.

There was a similar event where a chuck jaw departed the chuck in NZ last year - fortunately only a brown pants event & no injury.

Originally Posted by pommyphil

So..... do we classify the 32mm P&N SRG ( milled from 32mm round bar) as an enormous bowl gouge ( at an enormous price!)

Phil

It's an enormous gouge, whatever you call it!

And, I love mine.

But, the reason they don't make 32mm bowl gouges is that the cut is just too massive for most of us to manage.

The nice thing about the bowl gouge is that is the ideal gouge for turning bowls.

I have a 25mm bowl gouge, but it only comes out to play very occasionally. You rarely need a gouge as large as that. If they made (and I could afford) a 32mm bowl gouge it would never leave the tool rack.

When roughing a faceplate blank down to round it is just as quick to use a sturdy 1/2"or 5/8" bowl gouge on that interrupt cut.

PS - The P&N steel is/was good value for the money.

Neil
Yes, I've got a couple of 16mm P&N bowl gouges that I use all the time and a 19mm that rarely gets used.

I just got a brand new P&N 32mm SRG on eBay for $61.The 290mm handle was way too short, a 420mm oak handle has balanced it nicely.

I was just pointing out that everything milled from round bar is not a bowl gouge Phil

Originally Posted by pommyphil

Neil

I just got a brand new P&N 32mm SRG on eBay for $61.The 290mm handle was way too short, a 420mm oak handle has balanced it nicely.

I was just pointing out that everything milled from round bar is not a bowl gouge Phil

Great buy at that price, Phil.

Likewise, I added a longer handle.

Yes, I understood that you were making sure that there was no confusion and it was a good point that you were making. I just couldn't resist making a Crocodile Dundee Now That's a knife* comment...

*Do a reload of that window if it doesn't auto-run.

A lathe to fit a 32mm bowl gouge.

http://www.dunn247.co.uk/east%20gate...1/image009.jpg

Originally Posted by Paul39

A lathe to fit a 32mm bowl gouge.

http://www.dunn247.co.uk/east%20gate...1/image009.jpg

Now, that's a lathe!