Thread: Vicmarc tool rest issues

Hi Jeff

There are a couple of things you can check.

First the lathe hight;

I'd like to see a picture of you standing at the lathe.

How tall are you?

It appears from your pictures that the lathe could be too high for you.

Having the spindle at elbow hight is a good place to start.

Next thing to check is the toolrest hight.

The following applies to spindle turning.

With the bevel rubbing and the tool cutting the handle should be able to rest on your hip.

Adjust the tool rest hight so that this happens.

Different tool angles require different adjustments.

After doing this, if the tool is still doing what you describe, then the lathe is too high.

You then need a duck board to raise yourself up.

Most times you need to raise the toolrest when making a planing cut with a skew.

The skew will cut higher up on the work. Higher still with larger diameters.

I’ve taught many people on Vicmarc lathes and your problem has never been an issue. Your problem is in your setup not the toolrest. People may have other preferences but the standard Vicmark toolrest is quiet usable

My guess is the lathe is too high, I suspect a duckboard will fix your problem. Either that or you are holding the end of the tool below your hip hight.
I hope this helps

Cheers

Tim

Tim, thanks for your input.

I'm 6'1" in the old language and have in fact raised my lathe twice now and it still may a fraction low. I don't have to bend down as much, so I think it has helped. I've got the beast sitting on 2 lumps of 4 by 4 oregan.

Still trying to nut this one out!

Jeff

Jeff

Is the lathe a VL300 on a Vicmark stand?

What is your spindle hight?

Mine is 1150mm. I'm 5'10". this is abourt50mm above me elbow hight. Plenty high enough for me.

If you have raised your lathe by 100mm it may well be too high.

If you are having trouble with the tool wanting to run on the back of the toolrest as in your photo, there can only be 2 reasons.

1: The lathe is too high.

2: The toolrest is too low, which could mean the handle is being held too low and not touching on the front of the toolrest.

The handle at hip hight when the tool is cutting is the most comfortable hight to have the toolrest.

And as has been pointed out by others.

The tool works on the top edge of the toolrest. You can't just follow the angle of the toolrest.

Cheers

Tim

Tim,

I just checked my lathe (it's on a Vicmarc stand).

Spindle height is 1250mm, which I think is 100mm higher than yours, though you are 75mm or 3 inches shorter than me.

If I put my left hand on my right shoulder, the spindle is about an inch under my elbow. The height seems to suit, so I must be using the rest too low. I'll give it a try today and see how we go!

thanks Jeff

Hi Jeff

The lathe hight seems OK, could even be a bit higher for you.

We all have different shape bodies and arm lengths.

I suggest you adjust the toolrest until:

1: the tool is cutting with the bevel rubbing.

2 the tool is running along the top of the toolrest.

3: the end of the tool handle is about your hip height

4: don’t worry about the angle of the tool in relation to the toolrest.

If you can get 1,2,3 right. no 4 is irrelevant.

The angle of the tool to the work is the important thing not the angle of the tool in relation to the toolrest.

To test this theory out, raise the toolrest 50mm above the spindle height and see where your elbow is when you try using the tool.

Now drop it 50mm below the spindle height and try rubbing the bevel.

If the tool handle is at your hip, then you are at the most comfortable hight to use that tool. Different tools, different diameters, need different adjustments.

This would be fairly easy to sort out in person, quiet a challenge to do by the written word.

Good luck

Let’s know how you get on.

Cheers

Tim

Tim and Co,

Sorry I got side-tracked today. I went thru my library all day looking for clues on this one. But in one of the Raffan books I found I was doing my V-cuts wrong. So I've been practicing this arvo with the "approved" method. Less body and tool movement, which was working fine until after beer no. 5.

Will post again tomorrow, if and when ever returns....

I've got to nut this rest thing out. Everyone - including the experts - have views on it. Some say high, others low. The Darlow stuff, which seems to say at least for end grain cutting, the lower the approach angle the better. Less sub-surface damage.

It's got me stuffed, as my Raffan books clearly show the Vicmarc rests being used not at the top of the rest!!! Not all the time, but I can get the books out and quote page numbers if you like.

In the end, it probably doesn't matter that much. But I want to learn the right way and not develop too many bad habits. (Which I probably have done already).

To my way of thinking, I want a rest that lets me decide on what I am doing. Those "bead" profiles that Ern posted look fine.

Signing off for now, it's all too complicated.

Jeff

Originally Posted by Tim the Timber Turner

The tool works on the top edge of the toolrest. You can't just follow the angle of the toolrest.

There are some cuts (eg. a back-cut a la for hollowing) where the handle of the tool is dropped much lower than a tool would normally be presented.

ie. You cut inwards at the "correct" angle, then lower the handle as you make the back-cut, making a sorta figure eight motion.

Hitting the flat - or changing the pivot point to the bottom of the flat if the tool handle goes even lower - changes the flow of the cut and can royally screw things up if you're not expecting it. (And, in my case, even when you are. )

Skew
I agree with your description of the Raffan technique for hollowing with spindle gouge. This is an advanced technique.

However this was not the problem presented by Jeff. I still think he has a basic set up problem.

My comments were related to the problem being experienced by Jeff.


Jeff
Keep at it mate. Try and get together with someone to stand at your side and make corrections for you. would be your man for this. This will be more beneficial to you than all the books, videos and forum advice put together.

Cheers

Tim

Originally Posted by Tim the Timber Turner

Skew
I agree with your description of the Raffan technique for hollowing with spindle gouge. This is an advanced technique.

However this was not the problem presented by Jeff. I still think he has a basic set up problem.

My comments were related to the problem being experienced by Jeff.

Jeff
Keep at it mate. Try and get together with someone to stand at your side and make corrections for you. would be your man for this. This will be more beneficial to you than all the books, videos and forum advice put together.

Skew and Tim,

I had up for a week not so long back for lessons and good company. I admit we did discuss in theory the back hollowing technique but we let it be. Some of the cuts showed me were a bit much. But I'm still learning, so all is OK.

And I try to keep from spraying my workplace with shavings. Doesn't seem to matter where I stand, he still gets some on me.... I just wish I'd started turning a little earlier in life. Very pleasant.

Jeff

Will reply to this later.

Called in to see Jeff on Monday night and he showed me what he meant.

I must admit just standing there holding a bowl gouge i found the tool sitting on the back of the rest not on the top - what this in effect does is moves the support back from the wood therefore giving the same effect as having the rest too far from the work.

Yes it is only on some cuts but it is definetly a problem.

Maybe i hold the handle too far down as well because obviously this is when it is most promonent.

Lowering the centre height would help but as jeff says then he needs to bend over further or get better glasses so he can see.

keep at it Jeff - you have overcome the lefty probs so you will beat this one as well.

I thnk Skews idea has merit so long as the "dowell" isnt too large a diameter.

Cheers

Taken from here: http://www.woodturningdesign.com/askdale/21/

We have frequently heard woodturners talk about the Laws of Woodturning, and many tongue-in-cheek comments have been made, some of which are relevant.

Seriously, there are some “laws” which need to be followed. In Keith Rowley’s highly recommended book, Woodturning, a Foundation Course, Keith lists six laws which he thought were of primary importance, and I fully agree with him.

Law 1. The speed of the lathe must be compatible with the size, weight, and length of the wood to be turned.

Law 2. The tool must be on the rest before the whirling timber is engaged, and must remain so whenever the tool is in contact with the wood.

Law 3. The bevel (grinding angle) of the cutting tools must rub the wood behind the cut.

Law 4. The only part of the tool that should be in contact with the wood is that part of the tool receiving direct support from the tool rest.

Law 5. Always cut “downhill” or with the grain.

Law 6. Scrapers must be kept perfectly flat (in section) on the tool rest and presented in the “trailing mode,” i.e., with the tool handle higher than the tool edge.

Along with the Rowley laws, several others come to mind, but in a humorous mode:

1. You can always make it smaller.
2. It’s only wood, and you can burn it at any stage.
3. Catches are not problems, but rather artistic opportunities.
4. The longer it has been since you had a catch, the closer you are to having one. Nobody gets it right all the time.
5. Practice may not make you perfect, but it certainly produces a lot of shavings.
6. If you’re not having fun, you’re probably doing something wrong.
7. When things happen on the lathe, they happen FAST.

I have found that the tool rests on Vicmark lathes do not allow you to follow Rules 3 & 4 which are the fundamentals of all turning.

In my opinion the Vicmark rest should have the "bevel" ground on the back of the tool rest. This would allow good tool contact with the top or "tool supporting" part of the rest and allow you to have the rest a little closer to the work.

A badly designed rest can induce the operator to adopt bad habits.

Originally Posted by

...A badly designed rest can induce the operator to adopt bad habits.

So I can blame my Vicmarc Toolrest can I.

Originally Posted by Cliff Rogers

So I can blame my Vicmarc Toolrest can I.

Hmmm, maybe.