Thread: D-way vs Thompson gouge

Roughing cuts to the point of exhaustion???? You are a glutton for punishment. Don't think I could do that, no matter how curious I am. Then again, I would think I could push a butter knife into just about any wood if I tried hard enough.

How do you sharpen, and what profile do you use? Jig? Free hand? Aluminum oxide wheel? CBN wheel? Grit?

I do know that Dave does suspend his tools in the oven/forge/heat thing when tempering, and he tumbles them with ceramic beads to polish them. The V shape on his gouges cuts differently than the more U on Dougs gouges, and I present them to the wood differently.

robo hippy

like robo cop, the old movie, used to twirl my hammer around my finger try to get it into my tool belt, while wearing a big knee brace. One guy on the crew said, "Hey, it's Robo Hippy!", and I kind of liked it. Not .

[robo hippy wrote] Roughing cuts to the point of exhaustion???? You are a glutton for punishment. Don't think I could do that, no matter how curious I am.

BTW, that was to the point of edge, not turner, exhaustion. I was able to sit down and have a rest whenever I felt the need, but yes, a little mad none the less...

Then again, I would think I could push a butter knife into just about any wood if I tried hard enough.

True, but would it make shaving? When the curlies stopped coming off the gouge, I called that edge exhaustion and quit. As for pushing, I'm too buggered* nowadays to do anything else other than let the lathe do all the work...

How do you sharpen, and what profile do you use?

Predominantly V flutes with Ellseworth-Irish swept back grind. When I got my first Thompson gouge I found the grind that Doug uses was so close to my preferred grind (his is slightly more acute) that after just a few touch-ups Doug's grind was merged into mine. For example, the top gouge in the pic below is a Thompson with just a little of Doug's grind left.

Attachment 196727

Jig?

Yes, a custom made Tru-Grind style.

Free hand?

Yes, until jigs became readily available about 20 years ago.

Aluminum oxide wheel? CBN wheel? Grit?

I retouch on a #120 Woodriver diamond wheel. Recently purchased a #180 CBN from Dave. The #120 is a bit slower but puts a much finer grind on the edge than the #180 CBN. If the CBN is in fact #180 then the diamond #120 is in effect about #360.

I have a good selection of Alox wheels of various complexions in the cupboard.

I do know that Dave does suspend his tools in the oven/forge/heat thing when tempering, and he tumbles them with ceramic beads to polish them. The V shape on his gouges cuts differently than the more U on Dougs gouges, and I present them to the wood differently.

Interesting, thanks RH.

If Dave is tempering his tools by that method (if I understand it correctly) he is probably minimising or avoiding the tip mis-tempering raised earlier in this thread.

The tumble polishing adds another dimension. With softer metals it case hardens as well as polishes. I know that master Japanese blade sharpeners use a very hard finishing waterstone to burnish a more compact edge on their very hard steel blades which lab tests have shown improves edge durability. So maybe the tumble polish is value adding to flute performance beyond removing the milling marks and adding a polish.

RH - are you using Doug's U or V flute profile gouges?

robo hippy

like robo cop, the old movie, used to twirl my hammer around my finger try to get it into my tool belt, while wearing a big knee brace. One guy on the crew said, "Hey, it's Robo Hippy!", and I kind of liked it. Not .

Apologies to you tool twirler, corrected now...

------
*a term in common, almost polite, use here, so apologies if it offends elsewhere.

Neil,
Well, on the CBN wheels, I asked my myrtle wood turning buddy how he liked his shortly after he first got them. He told me the cutting edge did not last as long as the one he got from his standard wheels. Probably to being too coarse. I told him to wait a while. These wheels do 'break in'. When new, the 180 cuts like 100 to maybe 120 grit. I talked to him at our last meeting, and he says they are fine now. Now, that mine are broken in, they cut more like 180 grit (only comparison I have is with the matrix style CBN wheels I used for years, 150 grit, and mirror polish). I did talk to Cindy Drozda about her Woodcraft diamond matrix wheels, and she said they were always loading up and burning until she started her oil on a brush for the wheels, and they stopped doing that. There is a You Tube link about that.

I use Doug's V gouge for most of my finish cuts, and use the grind pretty much as it came. I do like a rounded nose as I cut with the tool held level, and the flutes rolled away from the cut, and get my shear angle from cutting with the nose. I do have some of his U gouges, and shaped one line the V gouge, and turned the other into a bottom of the bowl gouge (almost square across the top, with 70 degree bevel, and almost no sweep. I still have one swept back gouge, but seldom use it. I don't find the wings to have any advantage. I do rough and shear cut with my scrapers, which is what I would consider to be the advantages of the swept back grind if I used gouges for that. I don't really care for the V gouges like the Glaser or Dave's. With my level tool, they don't work as well, though if you drop the handle, they seem to work fine, but that isn't a cut that I use.

I have taken up platform grinding. Much more simple, and faster than any jig. I have found that the profile does not have to be perfect. None of mine were that way when I used a gouge jig. The nose was always more to one side than the other. Minor facets/flat spots on the gouge make no detectable difference in how the tool cuts that I can feel.

robo hippy

I've also reground my Thompson 5/8 U to a short bevel for transition cutting. Also about 70º. On the only run so far it made for exciting times with a long overhang. Pretty grabby.

RH - thanks for your responses.

Yes, personal preferences on flute profile is one of the factors in choosing a gouge. No point in having a gouge which gives a long 'sharp edge time' if you don't like using it. I might take a pic of the flutes on the ones I've got in case it helps anyone thinking of any of those. I have started a separate thread, here.

Some very experienced turners like yourself can successfully freehand sharpen on a platform. In hindsight, I would have preferred to have done things in the order you have; begin with jigs and then maybe progress to freehand. That way, by the time I got to freehanding, I would have acquired and refined my turning skills with gouge profiles that were repeatedly the same. Unfortunately jigs were not known (or known to me) back then, but now that I have them I don't think I will ever go back to freehanding. I find I can set the gouge in the jig while the grinder is cranking up to full speed and begin grinding at the same time I would freehand.

I expect you will find some different opinions on the forum about minor facets/flat spots on the gouge making no detectable difference in how the tool cuts. How the very experienced turner can cope with such variations compared to the novice is a factor.

I might also start a separate thread on the CBN wheel and replicate your comments on that there. If I do, I will put 'CBN' in the title.

Ern,
We have had different experiences with the U gouge grind. If the flutes are up, then I cut more in the bottom of the U, only barely going up the wing. If you go up on the wing, it acts like a SRG (spindle roughing gouge), becomes unbalanced, and wants to roll into the wood.

If I roll it over a bit, I am still on the U, but with the U more sideways, it gives a better shear cut. Not grabby at all for me. Again, I hold the gouge level, not with the handle dropped. It is a finish cut also, no roughing with that tool.

robo hippy

Yeah, that's probably the first run failure in application. Going in too hard and fast.

Will play some more with it and try to get the shearing thing happening. Used to more pointed tools with bevels at the point from 45 to 60 degrees, rising from the start of the hollowing, arcing over and then coming down to the centre.

I think it Dave Haut, or Hout, or some thing like that who makes a bowl skew, which is essentially the same thing. Like a skew, work with the bottom third of the tool. It is also extremely difficult to make an entry cut on the rim of the bowl with this tool. If I am making a rim to center cut with it, I will pull cut in a shear mode from just inside the rim to the lip, then a push cut from there on down. It works fine with a grinder burr, a honed burr, a burnished burr, or with the burr honed off. I usually just leave the burr from the grinder on.

robo hippy

I think that early in the sharpening and turning process we rely on what angle to grind and what angle to put the tool to the rotating wood.

After a few hundred hours in front of the lathe one can go to a different grind, or a not perfect grind, and by instinctively moving the tool angle up, down, back and forth, roll the gouge over, have the long strings of shavings come off without thinking about the process.

Very much like learning to drive, ride a bicycle, or fly.

I did get quite surprised going from a blunt grind bowl gouge to a swept back grind. Once I figured out how to handle the aggressive cutting it is my favorite for the outside of bowls and shallow insides. I use it pointed well up and slice the wood off with the long wing. For the inside of deep bowls I like the blunter grind, rolled over, the way RH does.

I'm learning a lot from this discussion.

Thanks to all contributing.

Originally Posted by NeilS

I'll also do a comparison with the Vicmarc vanadium gouges when they produce one in V flute profile.

Well that day never came (ie a VM gouge with a V flute profile), so I decided to try one of their 'parabolic' flute profiles models (discussion on that here).

I have now given the Vicmarc bowl gouge a reasonable endurance test up against the Thompson V10 V flute profile and the D-way (M42) V flute profile bowl gouges. I chose those two for a side-by-side test of endurance against the Vicmarc as they were two that I had tested previously (see above) and were an established benchmark.

My initial impression of the Vicmarc gouge on receiving it is that it did not retain its sharp edge very well. Some new gouges have a tip that has been inconsistently heat treated so that it is not until that has been ground back by about 10mm that it performs at its best. So, I ground that amount off the tip and re-profiled it before undertaking the comparison test to eliminate that as a possible issue.

VM tip ground back 1 - sm.jpg VM tip ground back 2 - sm.jpg

The wood used for the test was some very old (cut about 50yrs ago), very dry (6.3%) and extremely hard River Redgum that was originally cut into slabs by sleeper cutters. It is the hardest wood I have. Normally I use carbide to do most of the work on this wood... it kills HSS.

Redgum test piece - sm.jpg

I used the same procedure as previously; I rotating through each gouge in timed and recorded 1mim intervals until a gouge would cut no further (ie remove any wood). This way each gouge gets an equal exposure to all conditions of the wood for the life of the edge.

The gouges were then resharpened and the procedure repeated. After 7 rounds the results were as follows:

VM	Thomp	D-Way
2	2	3
4	1	2
2	2	3
3	3.5	3
4	3.5	3.5
3	1	3
2.5	3.75	3

The durability of the Vicmarc held up well in comparison to the others.

Then I tackled something a bit easier going, some very old and seasoned Sheoak with usually has a Janka hardness of about 2,190 lbf (9,730 N).

VM	Thomp	D-Way
9	4	6.5

At this the Vicmarc did even better.

There is nothing to suggest from this comparative durability test that the Vicmarc bowl gouge will not hold its edge as well as its competitors. I expect the result would be similar up against Woodcut, Henry Taylor and Crown. But, as with any gouge, if it doesn't perform well to begin with you may need to remove some of the tip to get it to provide its best performance.

Wow Neil 6 years to resurrect a thread. I really like the detailed analysis you have carried out on these. I was going to ask why you had not included the pioneer of the PM tools, Gerry Glaser Hitec tools. I am still using one I bought off Gary Pye when he was in Lismore around 1988 and it is still my favorite tool for abrasive timbers. Well, I looked them up and they are 3 times the price of Thompson tools, so if and when I need to replace mine, I will give the Thompson a go.
Thanks again,
Rgds,
Crocy.

Originally Posted by Old Croc

I was going to ask why you had not included the pioneer of the PM tools, Gerry Glaser Hitec tools. I am still using one I bought off Gary Pye when he was in Lismore around 1988 and it is still my favorite tool for abrasive timbers. Well, I looked them up and they are 3 times the price of Thompson tools

Yes, Crocy, the Glaser may be good but at 3X (or at least twice) the price I don't expect that they would be 3X as good. The steel is the same as in Thompson 15V and the finish about the same as a D-Way. You can have one of each of those for the price of one Glaser!

I wish I had also bought some original Glasers from Gary back when you did. I visited the Lismore area regularly each year back then (my hometown is Alstonville) and could have easily done so. Their price has skyrocketed since HITEC took over the manufacturing of them.

Originally Posted by NeilS

There is nothing to suggest from this comparative durability test that the Vicmarc bowl gouge will not hold its edge as well as its competitors. I expect the result would be similar up against Woodcut, Henry Taylor and Crown. But, as with any gouge, if it doesn't perform well to begin with you may need to remove some of the tip to get it to provide its best performance.

So... if I'm reading things correctly, in the bang-for-buck scale the unhandled Vicmarc is a worthy successor to the slot formerly held by P&Ns? Provided one puts the effort in to bring the 'unfinished' (<- my opinion) blank up to usable spec, of course. But that held true for P&Ns anyway.

Originally Posted by Skew ChiDAMN!!

So... if I'm reading things correctly, in the bang-for-buck scale the unhandled Vicmarc is a worthy successor to the slot formerly held by P&Ns? Provided one puts the effort in to bring the 'unfinished' (<- my opinion) blank up to usable spec, of course. But that held true for P&Ns anyway.

Yes, Andy, provided the flute profile suits you and, as you say, you are prepared to put the effort in to making them useable, which we got used to with P&Ns. It may also be a case of the the luck of the draw as to how much effort is required. Sending back the outriders may also rectify some of that!