Thread: Whats happening to wood turning Oz?

Originally Posted by hughie

Looking around are we, I wonder, seeing the slow demise of wood turning in Australia?

I have thought so for some time.

Thee are still some quite active, but isolated, clubs around the country. However, there is not enough of them collectively to sustain a national effort. There is also a changing of the guard within clubs with some of the older and previously most active members relinquishing their roles and not being replaced by enough enthusiastic members in the next generation. This is happening in all voluntary organisations.

Covid has also had an impact on visiting demonstrators (local and international) to run workshops and the like. Zoom has been invaluable during the height of Covid, but they are not a substitute for the circuit of workshops and turning events we had here a few years back. In contrast, the premier woodturning events in the US can attract over 2,000 attendees.

Also, without a dedicated woodturning journal, this forum is the closest we have to readily available information sharing and my observation is that the level of input (with a few exceptions) and interaction here has been in steady decline for a long time now.

At the core of the problem here is the very few full time woodturners (professional and/or dedicated and competent retirees) among us now. How many full time Australian woodturners do we know of? And, of those, how many are actively teaching, demonstrating and exhibiting. Without that we are on a steady decline in the level of woodturning skills and activity here.

Richard Raffan, whose international experience and judgement I respect, has said to me that the level of woodturning here in Australia is now 'quite low'.

Depressing, but given the above, I expect it is only going to go lower...

Originally Posted by NeilS

Richard Raffan, whose international experience and judgement I respect, has said to me that the level of woodturning here in Australia is now 'quite low'.

Depressing, but given the above, I expect it is only going to go lower...

Some interesting observations Hughie & Neil, most of which I whole heartedly agree with. I reckon we have been saying that wood turning is in decline for well over 20 years now. It's still here, perhaps not as high a profile due to quite a number of setbacks, but the diehards are still about.

The level of woodturning in Oz low?? I guess it depends in which circles you mix with. Generally, I would agree that the average club turners do not have the skills as say our Kiwi friends, mostly due to the lack of a unified approach to woodturning "education" in OZ. However, there are certainly pockets of excellence in Oz which can be attributed to a few motivated individuals, and events that expose woodturners to a wider scope of skills, knowledge, and mentorship.

Oz turning certainly has taken a big hit in recent years especially with the passing of Vic Wood and Neil Scobie plus other regionally well-known turners / demonstrators / mentors like Bruce Talbolt etc. Throw in the COVID disruptions, event cancellations such as the Maleny Wood Show, regional participation events, and the other commercially promoted wood shows makes for a pretty sad looking past few years.

However, in North QLD we have been able to keep the Prossy Turnout, now in Malanda, going in 2021 & 2022 with typical numbers and the same core group of long termers with some very noticeable absentees due to the 'hassles of life.' Unfortunately, with a rapidly ageing demographic many are feeling the effects of age and it's having a significant impact for them travelling to events etc. We have noticed some have dropped off because the event is further away from them now, however we also have some new faces which tends to balance out some.

With the economic pressures on families, and middle agers preparing for retirement, these days I can't see a 'new guard' emerging for quite a few years yet, as people have less spare money and even less time to volunteer to run clubs & events.

Interesting observations...

One thing I would pipe up with... turning in a shed/society is *relatively* pretty darn cheap!

If you have a place you can go to with lathes and people who will sharpen your tools...

If you need your own tools a set of basic HSS tools to get you going... $150 or so plus some firewood.

Compared with hand tool work generally, where to get going you will need

* A workbench (your first project)
* A few saws
* Some chisels
* At least one working hand plane
* Sharpening gear
* Marking out stuff (at least a quality combination square)
* In reality, a few rasps, files and whatnot

Even buying cheap vintage stuff and tuning up, there is a decent amount of work and minimum expense in there.

Originally Posted by Mobyturns

With the economic pressures on families, and middle agers preparing for retirement, these days I can't see a 'new guard' emerging for quite a few years yet, as people have less spare money and even less time to volunteer to run clubs & events.

Originally Posted by Cgcc

Interesting observations...

One thing I would pipe up with... turning in a shed/society is *relatively* pretty darn cheap!

If you have a place you can go to with lathes and people who will sharpen your tools...

If you need your own tools a set of basic HSS tools to get you going... $150 or so plus some firewood.

Compared with hand tool work generally, where to get going you will need

* A workbench (your first project)
* A few saws
* Some chisels
* At least one working hand plane
* Sharpening gear
* Marking out stuff (at least a quality combination square)
* In reality, a few rasps, files and whatnot

Even buying cheap vintage stuff and tuning up, there is a decent amount of work and minimum expense in there.

I do agree with you in part, starting out aint too bad. But over time the additional stuff will dwarf whatever it cost in the beginning. Things like lathe chucks, sharpening gear, bandsaw, chainsaw, centres live or dead drill chuck, sanding gear etc. OK if you're handy or have an engineering background much can be made. But I suspect the key is 'interest' and this is where national events like AWTEX draw much needed attention and for many sales of pieces. Add to that galleries/venues to display and sell what we make . They in my opinion are few and far between, add to that its always 'on consignment' so no risk or interest to promote by a gallery. Then the added mark up it can be so high its ridiculous, I have seen 100% and my current gallery its %75 , so my price say $400 becomes $700 now that to me is a tall order. Alternately we/I lower the price in order to sell it, say $150 then it becomes $260, will that sell? Yup but I might have spent a few days making it along with skill, artistic content etc. So we are also missing public appreciation and consideration along with awareness this strikes me as a long row to hoe.
Now I have suggested to more than one gallery how about we get together and work out a price to improve sales based on the super market model ie small or lesser profits but faster moving products that in turn draws more customers into the gallery with obvious benefits for all concerned. What the hell was I thinking ?

Oh I agree but look at Richard Raffan's current shop compared to a cabinetmaker set up.

A full-featured woodshop would need 3-phase power, beefy dust collection, and typically either a jointer + planer or combination machine, tablesaw, probably a bandsaw as well, drill press and probably some stationery sanders. It is not hard to regard many other items as typical including power routers, a router table, variety of ROS's etc.

And that is not including hand tools where you can really go crazy or not but it is not hard to drop a few thousand in total if you want to gather various joinery planes on top of your basic bench planes.

On your more substantive point, I am a member of a local society. There are many top-drawer turners. I know the work that goes into them. I practice almost exclusively spindle-work as my entry into turning was really just to re-handle tools myself and ongoing interest is to make components for other projects (stretchers, legs etc).

I have seen a number of younger guys join and how they progress. I have been going irregularly (sometimes can't for months because of work) but on the general point of whether turning is on a decline I have noticed that some younger members seem to get to a stage where they have made a few bowls, not much else is going on, and they drift off.

I am usually doing spindle work and usually the only person in a workshop session doing anything except bowls.

Originally Posted by hughie

I do agree with you in part, starting out aint too bad. But over time the additional stuff will dwarf whatever it cost in the beginning. Things like lathe chucks, sharpening gear, bandsaw, chainsaw, centres live or dead drill chuck, sanding gear etc. OK if you're handy or have an engineering background much can be made. But I suspect the key is 'interest' and this is where national events like AWTEX draw much needed attention and for many sales of pieces. Add to that galleries/venues to display and sell what we make . They in my opinion are few and far between, add to that its always 'on consignment' so no risk or interest to promote by a gallery. Then the added mark up it can be so high its ridiculous, I have seen 100% and my current gallery its %75 , so my price say $400 becomes $700 now that to me is a tall order. Alternately we/I lower the price in order to sell it, say $150 then it becomes $260, will that sell? Yup but I might have spent a few days making it along with skill, artistic content etc. So we are also missing public appreciation and consideration along with awareness this strikes me as a long row to hoe.
Now I have suggested to more than one gallery how about we get together and work out a price to improve sales based on the super market model ie small or lesser profits but faster moving products that in turn draws more customers into the gallery with obvious benefits for all concerned. What the hell was I thinking ?

Originally Posted by Cgcc

Interesting observations...

One thing I would pipe up with... turning in a shed/society is *relatively* pretty darn cheap!

If you have a place you can go to with lathes and people who will sharpen your tools...

Certainly, those options are about if you are fortunate enough to have a club or Men's Shed nearby.

From my observations of clubs there is often a huge disparity between the well-heeled members and those on limited means, which tends to create friction about tool provision, wear, general misuse etc. It may be "*relatively* pretty darn cheap" dollar wise but you often pay in other ways - volunteering. The daily access fee to most workshops barely covers electricity, and no-where near covering wear & tear on tools etc.

I've also observed that in general, those who receive the most benefit as in cheap access to tools and machinery are the least likely to contribute by volunteering to sharpen tools, maintain machinery, participate in cleanups etc. Simply human nature, and a reflection of general skill sets, attitude etc which reminds me of an old saying "givers must have limits, because takers have none."

but we digress .... there are many very well-run and well resourced, clubs and sheds.

Originally Posted by Mobyturns

However, in North QLD we have been able to keep the Prossy Turnout, now in Malanda, going in 2021 & 2022 with typical numbers and the same core group of long termers with some very noticeable absentees due to the 'hassles of life.' Unfortunately, with a rapidly ageing demographic many are feeling the effects of age and it's having a significant impact for them travelling to events etc. We have noticed some have dropped off because the event is further away from them now, however we also have some new faces which tends to balance out some.

I tried to google prossy turnout 2022 and got nothing. What is it?

There are three woodturning clubs within coo-ee of where I live. None of them are active on the weekends when I'm not working. Is there some great secret they're saving for just the old fellers?

Cheers
Redbeard

Originally Posted by Mobyturns

Certainly, those options are about if you are fortunate enough to have a club or Men's Shed nearby.

From my observations of clubs there is often a huge disparity between the well-heeled members and those on limited means, which tends to create friction about tool provision, wear, general misuse etc. It may be "*relatively* pretty darn cheap" dollar wise but you often pay in other ways - volunteering. The daily access fee to most workshops barely covers electricity, and no-where near covering wear & tear on tools etc.

I've also observed that in general, those who receive the most benefit as in cheap access to tools and machinery are the least likely to contribute by volunteering to sharpen tools, maintain machinery, participate in cleanups etc. Simply human nature, and a reflection of general skill sets, attitude etc which reminds me of an old saying "givers must have limits, because takers have none."

but we digress .... there are many very well-run and well resourced, clubs and sheds.

Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor

I tried to google prossy turnout 2022 and got nothing. What is it?

It was a participation style wood turning event originally founded by the woodturners in the Proseripine area and lead by Conrad Jansen (CJ).

An awesome gathering of like-minded turners with invited guest turners such as the late Gordon Ward, Vic Wood, Neil Scobie and still living turners such as Guilio Marcolongo, Ken Wraight, Andi Wolfe (USA) etc. It was run by the Prossy club for almost 2 decades at 'Camp Kanga.' Then a couple of years under the stewardship of the Mackay club.

Now transferred to a wonderful site, an education style recreational camp with a large luxurious multi use hall, at Quinola Lakes near Malanda. Contact David Drescher at SEQLD Woodworking Supplies for further details as he has assumed the reigns by default.

Originally Posted by Redbeard

There are three woodturning clubs within coo-ee of where I live. None of them are active on the weekends when I'm not working. Is there some great secret they're saving for just the old fellers?

Cheers
Redbeard

Unfortunately, that is another one of the issues facing many with participation in clubs - the limited hours of operation.

Sometimes that may be beyond the club's control as some may face restrictions on opening hours, noise, etc due to the terms of the lease agreement with the building owner, local authority or to keep the neighbours on side. or its simply a lack of volunteers to 'supervise' additional sessions.

Edit, it could also be a perceived lack of interest / support for additional sessions. My suggestion would be to attend a general meeting as a visitor or make contact with the executive of the club and make some enquiries.

There are a lot of very good and very well-run clubs about who are keen to extend their charter of providing access to their facilities and to promote wider participation in wood turning / working etc.

All good interesting comments. Like all things it's riding waves in popularity. My experience is I used to do reasonable quality woodturning, entered the local show competition for approx 18 years, had reasonable success. Then the focus of stewards and judges turned to "artistic" turning and as I only make practical, useable, bowls, platters and grinders, I fell out of contention. I haven't entered for 4 years now and I only make caps for beer cans now.
But that's how things go.
Rgds,
Crocy.

Originally Posted by Old Croc

All good interesting comments. Like all things it's riding waves in popularity. My experience is I used to do reasonable quality woodturning, entered the local show competition for approx 18 years, had reasonable success. Then the focus of stewards and judges turned to "artistic" turning and as I only make practical, useable, bowls, platters and grinders, I fell out of contention. I haven't entered for 4 years now and I only make caps for beer cans now.
But that's how things go.
Rgds,
Crocy.

Yes indeed, and for the arty stuff they want to pay as little as possible, with suggestions such as ' I could do that' and ' the Chinese are cheaper' . But down here in Sydney the venues open to the wood turner to display and sell the craft are few and far between.

Originally Posted by hughie

my current gallery its %75 , so my price say $400 becomes $700 now that to me is a tall order. Alternately we/I lower the price in order to sell it, say $150 then it becomes $260, will that sell? Yup but I might have spent a few days making it along with skill, artistic content etc. So we are also missing public appreciation and consideration along with awareness this strikes me as a long row to hoe.

My gallery also does a markup of 76%, but that includes 10% GST of the selling price that they have to pay.

I don't begrudge the gallery getting that. Some pieces move quickly while others can sit there taking up display space for twelve months waiting for the right customer to come along and someone always has to be there at the gallery to make that sale, plus they have the cost of lighting, heating and insurance. I am happy to be in my workshop making but have no interest in being in the gallery selling, but without the ongoing sales I would have to stop making...

On what gallery customers will pay... in my experience they are willing to pay more than I expect for larger specky pieces, but there just isn't enough of those customers to provide the volume of sales that would provide a reasonable overall return on effort. This is as much to do with the size as the appreciation or wealth of our population. My most expensive pieces eventually sell, more often than not going to interstate or overseas visitors to the gallery. We shouldn't be shy about putting a reasonable price on our work as that educates the buying public, but we also have to accept the speed of sales will always be slower than we would want.

We (and our NZ cousins) punch well above out weight when it comes to innovation and quality in woodturning equipment, which is sustained by international sales. But, unfortunately, this hasn't translated into international sales of our turned pieces. Turners in the US have it much better, IMO. If the lifestyle wasn't so good here, some of us may have joined the move to the US along with the UK and Irish turners that have already done that...

In the eighties I went into a few shows do sell my wares but realised I didn't have the ability to make the sale, so I pivoted to production turning where I only dealt with furniture makers... I was really good at it, much faster than anyone else, by hand or automatic lathe. In 2004 my wife and I decided to move to Australia from Canada. When we got here one thing was evident about woodturning, relatively speaking, was dead (at least in QLD), except for a few well known names. People were trying to sell their wares for not much more than the cost of the wood it was that bad. And the production side was non-existent. I put it down to two factors: 1) Too close to china, can't compete when the guy in china is working for a bowl of rice/day. 2) People here are really cheap. In Canada and America there were plenty of clients that wanted quality over price, but here, that characteristic is scarce. Even the richest clients here complain about a few dollars and try to rip me off. I can make table legs and furniture parts that are far better than you can get from a copy lathe or some chinese company but no one will pay the extra $3 for them. And don't get me started on the cost of materials here...

Maybe one day it will swing around and be popular again - but don't hold your breath with the young-ins coming up. They're great at coding and pulling together an app that will tell you if your fridge is at the optimum temp from anywhere in the world, but have no physical skills. I think it's a skill that will die by 2050