Thread: Villaboard in Shower Area

Sorry, argument hmm...
Mr. DeBakey's free, but he's a little bit conciliatory.
Ahh yes, Try Mr. Barnard; room 12.

Originally Posted by silentC

So do you provide instructions with your flat pack kitchens?

as a matter of fact i do ,i send all of my customers to a webpage behind the scenes for assembly ,now that i think about it i believe that i have published it here ,but then again the old mind isnt what it used to be ,but experience still seems to be here !!!!!!!!!!

Can't resist a healthy discussion. Seems to me the question is whether Villaboard needs to be sealed before sticking on tiles. The installations instructions for Villaboard are exactly that - the installation of the Villaboard. Whether it has to be sealed before sticking on tiles would surely depend upon the type of adhesive you use. I would rely on the advice of the adhesive manufacturer rather than the Villaboard installation instructions.

Am i the only one this sounds like a cat fight to ????????????????????????? And for what it's worth, i've never sealed any wet area/villaboard over the years (other than over stopped-up areas) and haven't got any callbacks yet!

Be good,
Jason.

Originally Posted by ex-chippie

Am i the only one this sounds like a cat fight to ????????????????????????? And for what it's worth, i've never sealed any wet area/villaboard over the years (other than over stopped-up areas) and haven't got any callbacks yet!

Be good,
Jason.

this is exactly what i posted in my original reply to this thread

as a matter of fact i do ,i send all of my customers to a webpage behind the scenes for assembly

So do you expect them to follow them, or just do it the way they think best? What would you do if a DIYer didn't follow your instructions and then rang you to say they had a problem?

Seems to me the question is whether Villaboard needs to be sealed before sticking on tiles

Correct. I think you'll find the answer is that Villaboard does not need to be sealed but that the relevant code needs to be adhered to with regard to waterproofing. That's what the manufacturer recommends:

"For walling applications, Villaboard lining covered with tiles and HardiGlaze
tile sheets are ideal as they meet the waterproofing requirements in
shower areas."

In other words, the board itself satisfies the waterproofing requirements. I've never heard of anyone sealing it first, in fact I think that it would be counter-productive to do it.

this is exactly what i posted in my original reply to this thread

I'm not objecting to your original advice, never said I was. James Hardie pretty much supports your method, and if you actually read the guides, you would know this. I'm objecting to this:

yeah ,and i have read them all back to front and the manufacturers go to great lengths to cover their behind if their product fails ,btw if all contractors took notice of the recommended installation instructions for all things that make a house or a reno, would you pay at least a 50 percent premium over and above the cost of the reno/house i think not

This is what you posted after I gave the links to those James Hardie doucments. It implies that they can be ignored and your advice is that doing it the way the manufacturer recommends is going to cost more for no benefit.

It's clear to me that you haven't even read it. It indicates to me that your objection to my posting those links was a knee-jerk reaction. Maybe you could go through and, using your wealth of experience, point out which aspects of the installation instructions and wet area design guide are unnecessary and over the top. They look quite reasonable to me, but then I'm not a 'tradie'. You might find you agree with 90% of it and don't even know it.

I think the areas you are most likely to vary are when it comes to corner flashings but this is the area where you are most likely to get leaks and it actually doesn't cost all that much more to do that bit right. Most of the cost of the job is in wall sheet and tiles. The membrane is needed anyway and only costs a couple of hundred to have installed. The few extra materials needed to do it properly wouldn't amount to much.

Am i the only one this sounds like a cat fight to

Not sure what you're implying. What it is is an objection to the attitude that exists amongst a lot of tradies (I say a lot because they're not all like this) who think that they can just do things in their own way and disregard the guidelines. Cowboys, the lot of 'em.

This is what you posted after I gave the links to those James Hardie doucments. It implies that they can be ignored and your advice is that doing it the way the manufacturer recommends is going to cost more for no benefit.


could you please expand on your experience or knowledge on waterproofing and villa board ,i openly show my credentials but know nothing about yours ,perhaps you are just objecting to posts for arguments sake

could you please expand on your experience or knowledge on waterproofing and villa board

I don't have any, as I've already pointed out. Never said I have. I have Aquachek in my bathrooms and the waterproof membrane was installed by my tiler. I'm not offering advice, other than to refer to the manufacturer's instructions, nor am I contradicting yours. All I am doing is objecting to your attitude to the information I provided a link to. I'm not putting my experience and knowledge up against yours, I'm putting the experience and knowledge of James Hardie's engineering department up against yours.

So come on, seeing as you've read it from cover to cover, which specific parts of the installation manual and/or wet area design guide do you disagree with, and why, in your experience, are they unecessary. What steps do you take to mitigate the potential for failure that James Hardie, in their haste to cover their own backsides, are trying to prevent?

perhaps you are just objecting to posts for arguments sake

Now that would just be silly, wouldn't it? A bit like automatically rejecting manufacturer's installation instructions without even reading them because you've been 'doing it that way for years and never had a call back'.

Tom,

I'm afraid I'm pretty much with Silent on this one. I'd like to remind you of your opening statement if I may:

Originally Posted by arms

yeah ,and i have read them all back to front and the manufacturers go to great lengths to cover their behind if their product fails ,btw if all contractors took notice of the recommended installation instructions for all things that make a house or a reno, would you pay at least a 50 percent premium over and above the cost of the reno/house i think not !!!!!!!!!!!!!,

I do have a bit of experience with villaboard installation, and with failures from installations that didn't follow the manufacturer's recommendations, and I'd love to know what specifically tradies can do to save 50% of the villaboard installation cost, that won't impact on the work!

These sorts of claims are dangerous to say the least, but I'm happy to learn.

Originally Posted by arms

,coating the whole area is an overkill as the manufacturer of the tiling adhesive is looking for someone else to blame if their product fails

Again interesting. The villaboard instructions are not concerned with tiling adhesive, just keeping the sheets flat in the long term. IF your tiling adhesive manufacturer directs waterproofing behind the sheets, then I suggest you do it (or use a different brand adhesive).

You may recall a time in the eighties when every five year old shower lost its tiles?? Yep, glue failure due to moisture absorbtion..... Glues have improved and so have the instructions.

Has it occurred to you that if a the manufacturer recommends something, their product has been designed to work in that situation, and maybe not in another??? You may get away with ignoring the instructions, heaven knows I do all the time, but NOT when I'm doing work or giving advice to someone else!

I'd still like to hear how what shortcuts you recommend for the Villaboard installation.


Cheers,

P

,coating the whole area is an overkill as the manufacturer of the tiling adhesive is looking for someone else to blame if their product fails [/quote]


this was my origional reply to the question , if you read my response you will see that i am talking about coating the villa board entirely with waterproofing compound ,the tiling adhesives manufacturers recommend coating the entire surface before appling glue ,but heres the kicker ,they recommend only using their waterproofing compound to adhere their glue to ,now i dont know anyone that covers the entire sheet before tiling ,but if the weekend warrier were to read this advice then they would proceed with the purchase of the sealer and following manufacturers RECOMMENDATIONS end up paying an extra %50 over what it should cost in the real world

The tiler who did our bathroom waterproofed the whole area to be tiled.

If you go on and install a waterproof membrane to the entire sheet, it's not because James Hardie recommends it. But there's no way it adds 50% to the cost anyway. It uses what, half a litre more of the membrane, and about 15 minutes?

I don't think it's unusual for the glue manufacturer to recommend their own membrane. There are a few different types and if they are expected to warrant their glue, then they would want to specify the type of membrane it goes over. If the glue isn't compatible, then it could fail.

Originally Posted by arms

the tiling adhesives manufacturers recommend coating the entire surface before appling glue ,but heres the kicker ,they recommend only using their waterproofing compound to adhere their glue to ,

Not all adhesive requires this, however the products that do require compatible product for a very good reason. If non-compatible product is used there can be a breakdown or complete loss of adhesion.

Having overseen the removal of all of the external paint on a 35 story building because an incompatible sealer was used, I can tell you I won't accept the use of materials from differing manufacturers on any job I'm involved with.

Three or four years ago, I had a builder replace artificial grass surfacing AND waterproofing on the roof decks of 24 apartments, after it bubbled off due to using glue and waterproofing from different manufacturers. This was despite clear warnings on the literature and the tins.

These are real projects, and while I won't name them online, I'll happily show you the files - makes very sobering reading. It may be that I see more of these issues because I work at a large scale, and therefore see many more projects than a typical house builder, certainly I'm not talking about shonky builders here. All the builders have been large companies with good solid reputations. Somewhere down the line, someone didn't read the instructions.

now i dont know anyone that covers the entire sheet before tiling ,but if the weekend warrier were to read this advice then they would proceed with the purchase of the sealer and following manufacturers RECOMMENDATIONS end up paying an extra %50 over what it should cost in the real world

Well, I've certainly seen it done on more than one occasion, and in my own places I make a point of wetsealing under all tiles in the wet parts - full shower recess rather than just the corners, bath to 600 and so on. This is because the cost of fixing a failure in five or six years, when it's likely to happen, will be 150% of the original cost.

On the other hand, there are adhesives on the market which do not require this. Are they better or cheaper? I don't know.

What I do know is that if a manufacturer says you should do something, they generally aren't kidding. The instance of failure may be small if you don't, but there will be failure.

Typical instances I see regularly are:

Sealants designed for use with primers, that people tell me "they've never used a primer in their life".

Epoxies designed for specifice proportional mixes, that people "slosh" together.

Paint and glue systems where different manufacturer's products are mixed.

Metals (specially zincalume) installed in non-recommended situations. I have mentioned previously that I currently have a builder replacing all the screws in the soffits and verandahs of a ninety unit complex...

The biggest problem I have, is that the subcontract companies are long gone when these problems occur. If the problems occur early, (like the screws, the carpet and the paint above) the company goes bust, but the guys that did the job live on, and never seem to learn, in fact they don't even get to know it happened, so go on repeating the mistake in ignorance.

The instances of failure may be small percentage wise, but they still cost.

Personally, I pay to insure my house in the hope I never have to make a claim, and read the instructions for the same reason.

And yes, I have been sworn at by subbies for insisting on doing things by the book!

Cheers,

P

if the weekend warrier were to read this advice then they would proceed with the purchase of the sealer and following manufacturers RECOMMENDATIONS end up paying an extra %50 over what it should cost in the real world

I'm just at a loss as to what the alternative might be, Arms. Do we tell DIYers like the original poster (who appears to have beaten a hasty retreat) to not bother and get in a tradesman? Do we tell them to ignore the manufacturer and ask here? What warranty are you going to give on your advice if it contradicts the instructions on the tin? How does he know that you know what you are talking about? Are you going to go and help him fix it if following your advice causes the job to fail?

Sorry, but I think that the line or reasoning you are following is unsupportable.