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  1. #46
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    This must be one of the most amazing WIPs here
    Visit my website at www.myWoodwork.com.au

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  3. #47
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    Nov 2020
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Q View Post
    Gary, even your saw horses are works of art.
    Ah, sawhorses. Deserves a whole thread somewhere.

    Before I started this project and despite woodworking for 40 years I somehow had zero saw horses. I looked around for designs that would be useful specifically for timber framing using Japanese tools and techniques. The design you see was popularized many years ago by Jay Van Arsdale, a woodworker in California who teaches Japanese carpentry. Plans are available on the internet. These are sturdy as heck. They don't need to be nearly as robust to support the work but the wide top is useful to keep the beams from sliding around. They are low so that you can sit on the beams while working them. The ones I made are little clunky/crude looking to my eye but I didn't fuss over the details. I used western red cedar since I thought I might use them outdoors where they can get wet.

    My other horses, which I like much better for just keeping wood off the ground are these designed by James Krenov. Plans also all over the internet. Too light weight for pounding on them but they are great for taking up little space in the shop.

    Krenov horses.jpeg

    And then I did exactly one of these splay-legged horses based on a Chris Hall design and tutorial for learning Japanese roof layout. It required geometry similar to what is used in a hipped roof. Most sawhorses are slapped together and meant to be somewhat disposable. This one is a "forever" sawhorse. There is no glue (except for the laminated top) and no metal. Just joinery. It will support whatever you give it. But it is rather heavy and does take up a lot of shop space. One is enough for me.

    6BBF959C-7F34-48CC-A45E-BF5DD3F1CEE3_1_105_c.jpeg

    Ponies in the herd:

    B379FF40-60C2-41CB-B26E-EE93AE83A768_1_105_c.jpeg

  4. #48
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
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    Foot of the Dandenong Ranges
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    40 years experience! I knew your posted age of 22 was a joke. I kept thinking, how is a 22 year old this well set up in the workshop and so good already at woodwork?
    I love the saw horses. Especially the Chris Hall designed one. You're right. They DO deserve their own thread.

    Lyndon

  5. #49
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    Nov 2020
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    Oregon, USA
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    22
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    Quote Originally Posted by BEM View Post
    40 years experience! I knew your posted age of 22 was a joke.

    Lyndon
    GRadice, international man of mystery!

    I actually just turned 70, but that's just between you and me.

    The Hall saw horse has some wonderful layout challenges. The legs are not square in section but rather slightly diamond shaped to accommodate the splay angles. And then compound angled mortice and tenons join the legs to the top. It took me many mistakes and several tries to get the drawings right.

    Yesterday was a bad day. I dropped my large framing slick on the concrete. Of course it landed on the cutting edge. No catastrophic damage but it did take me three hours to resharpen it. It is possible to speed up sharpening using electric grinders but that usually is not done with Japanese tools because of the risk of heating them up too much and losing temper on the edge. So coarse diamond stone for most of the grunt work. I considered it penance.

  6. #50
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    Millmerran,QLD
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRadice View Post
    GRadice, international man of mystery!

    I actually just turned 70, but that's just between you and me.

    The Hall saw horse has some wonderful layout challenges. The legs are not square in section but rather slightly diamond shaped to accommodate the splay angles. And then compound angled mortice and tenons join the legs to the top. It took me many mistakes and several tries to get the drawings right.

    Yesterday was a bad day. I dropped my large framing slick on the concrete. Of course it landed on the cutting edge. No catastrophic damage but it did take me three hours to resharpen it. It is possible to speed up sharpening using electric grinders but that usually is not done with Japanese tools because of the risk of heating them up too much and losing temper on the edge. So coarse diamond stone for most of the grunt work. I considered it penance.
    GR

    Nothing wrong with 70. I too am approaching 70: From the wrong side .

    Saw Horses are the draught horses of woodworking.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  7. #51
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    Nov 2020
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    I'm fine with being 70, too. Although, I was talking with a friend about the same age yesterday who was raving about his e-bike. He said, "When you ride it, it makes you feel younger and stronger!" I said, "SOLD!"

    Here is a new-to-me way to peg a mortise and tenon joint that I've decided to use on my shed. I learned of it from Jon Billing, an American who moved to Japan to learn carpentry and woodworking and writes a blog once per week that I very much like:

    Notes from the Shop - Big Sand Woodworking Blog

    Pegged mortise and tenons are probably centuries old. As far as I know, in the West pegs are round but in the East they are mostly square. I have no idea why the difference. Does anyone here?

    Staying with Japan, also as far as I know the tradition is to orient a square peg, a komisen, 込栓, with its sides parallel to the posts and beams horizontally and vertically. But according to Jon Billing and his sources, a new and better way is to rotate the square peg 45 degrees and kerf the end of the end of the tenon. When draw bored and under tension the peg then expands and wedges the end of the tenon in its mortice. The greater the tension, the greater the wedging action.

    I have not seen the engineering data but intuitively this seems brilliant to me. And since I'm building a garden shed and not a hospital I decided to try it. I have some stub tenons to further resist twisting of the floor beams.

    FDD91265-71CD-45BC-BACC-F02DCD244F88_1_105_c.jpegF8A6C159-474F-42C5-9457-DA5975A6DA37_1_105_c.jpeg

  8. #52
    FenceFurniture's Avatar
    FenceFurniture is offline The prize lies beneath - hidden in full view
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Nothing wrong with 70. I too am approaching 70: From the wrong side .
    Everything is wrong with 70 if you are approaching it from the right side. In 4 years I doubt my health will be any better (it's not too bad now though) and I'm damn sure I won't be any wiser...perhaps just a whisker more knowledgeable, with luck. Certainly gaining knowledge from this excellent thread!


    Quote Originally Posted by GRadice View Post
    As far as I know, in the West pegs are round but in the East they are mostly square. I have no idea why the difference. Does anyone here?
    They didn't have a lathe to make a round tenon? Maybe it's a decorative thing? Making a square peg fit a square hole is probably easier and more accurate than making a round peg fit a round hole (no, don't go to the obvious....)
    Regards, FenceFurniture

    COLT DRILLS GROUP BUY
    Jan-Feb 2019 Click to send me an email

  9. #53
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    Nov 2020
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    And just in case my description of the rotated square peg and kerfed tenon wasn't clear, here is a model of what one will look like from the tenon side:


    29301912-A4F5-45BB-B56D-11F7028D406A_1_105_c.jpeg

    I have read that that in the Western tradition sometimes holes were drilled round and square pegs were pounded into them. The corners of the peg bit into the circumference and held fast.

    "A square peg in round hole," nowadays means to be a misfit but back in the day apparently it was meant to refer a solid, stalwart person who could be relied upon.

    Can anyone confirm this story?

  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRadice View Post
    "A square peg in round hole,"
    That's very interesting, isn't it.

    Making a round hole is easy, but making a round peg is not.

    It is MUCH easier to make a square peg and knock the edges off it with a plane.

    Hammering an octagonal into place forces a bloody tight fit.

    Are there any Shaker experts here who may have seen this? My Shaker woodworking bible (a monster of a tome) is in storage

    1-a-pegs.jpg

  11. #55
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    Nov 2020
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodPixel View Post

    Making a round hole is easy, but making a round peg is not.

    It is MUCH easier to make a square peg and knock the edges off it with a plane.



    1-a-pegs.jpg
    That rationale makes sense, thanks.

    I might be a little delayed in posting on shed progress for awhile since today we welcomed this little girl to our household. We have named her "Willa." Nine week old Golden Retriever. She joins a nine year old GR named Stella and a four year old Siamese cat named Sky. So far, all is surprisingly tranquil.



    2786228F-E0BC-4686-B7D8-A2DFBAC7FBFE.jpeg0CCB132D-A4C8-4D65-98DE-1B7BA0B38BE7_1_201_a.jpeg

  12. #56
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    Nov 2020
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    I finished the 28 post mortices and I'm on to the three way joint between the post, a tie beam on the short axis of the shed, and an eave beam on the long axis. This particular framing joinery is called oriokigumi 折置組 and apparently is used mostly for barns rather than residences because it requires a tie beam on every post. That limits design options for residences. But fine for my simple shed.

    Here is a pic of a joinery model in a book. The tie beam sits on the post and eave beam sits on the tie beam. The joint between the tie beam and eave beam is a cogged lap joint, in Japanese called a watari ago
    渡腮. I have read that is as strong as a half lap joint but removes less wood. I cannot confirm that but I'm doing it anyway.
    E2BEF7EB-854E-4C13-9A31-7CB686269EE8_1_201_a.jpeg

    I've started on the tie beam half. I did the through mortice first using a drill, chisels, and slick. I also used a fake tenon with pencil/graphite scribbled on its surface to mark contact points and a square to make sure the mortice sides were right. For the rest I used hand saws, chisels, slicks, and a router plane. I tried a router, too, but that was too scary and noisy and required a template and such. If I was doing many of these i would definitely grab a router but for six joints and no deadline I've decided to use hand tools. I'm still working it out. By the time I'm done with the sixth one I might have a method I like.

    Here is one half joint done. I seem to be able to do two per day, which is fine with me. The little bevel in one corner is to accommodate a decorative chamfer on the eave beam.
    8C6A589E-935C-4D32-B050-7BF4249D423F_1_201_a.jpeg

  13. #57
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    Nov 2020
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    I finished the joinery for the three tie/cross beams. The mortices in the centers are for the equivalent of king posts that will support the ridge beam. The beams still need to be finish planed and chamfered. I'll either paint the end grain or apply copper caps. All that will come after all the shed joinery is finished.

    hari beams - 1.jpeg

    Edit: in case my descriptions haven't been clear, these beams are the ones shown here in dark brown.

    hari beams - 1 (1).jpeg
    Attached Images Attached Images

  14. #58
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    Nov 2020
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    Instead of finishing the post/eave/cross beam joints I decided to work on the floor beams. Only because I already have them in my shop. Less work than moving them out and moving the much longer eave and post beams back into the shop from outdoors.

    Here is one end of one floor beam. Those little half arrows are for wedges that will pull a matching tenon in tight to the beam and the post. The joint is a little rough as my first attempt, but since I thought it might be, I started with the one in the back of the shed that faces down or hidden in a post so almost none of this will be visible in the finished shed. I'll do the the other one that will be front and center later.

    E61D1480-E85F-4D3C-9E3A-F852F2CB4268_1_201_a.jpeg

    Here is the location of this floor beam in the shed:

    Ashigatame.jpg

  15. #59
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    You have to admire the mindset of the original carpenters from eon's ago who developed these joints, no doubt there would have been a lot of trial and error involved
    The person who never made a mistake never made anything

    Cheers
    Ray

  16. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by rwbuild View Post
    You have to admire the mindset of the original carpenters from eon's ago who developed these joints, no doubt there would have been a lot of trial and error involved
    Ditto!

    I was wondering if these complex joints were developed to erect wooden structures without the need for fasteners and to be flexible enough in the event of an earthquake for the joints to interlock in "all" directions to prevent the structures to fall apart as a result of the shaking & quaking?
    And another question is which joint to use for what... !!

    Cheers
    Yvan

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