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  1. #1
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    Mar 2008
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    Townsville, Nth Qld
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    Default Aligning strap hinges first go

    Hello, there are two bugbears I have with boxes, and I have never ever been able to do them perfectly, not once, I am very embarrassed to say.

    The first is cutting the box lid off the box on the table saw. I always end up having to sand the box and the lid so the mating surfaces are spot on. I would dearly love to be able to cut the lid off with a glue ready cut with a good rip blade without having to sand the lid and the box to avoid gaps. I use a 2mm rip blade, and after each side is cut, I tape a 2mm piece of scrap timber in the cut kerf.

    The second is one fitting strap hinges ( SmartHinges or 35 x 6mm brass plated ones) so that the lid is not skewed because the length of the slot cut for the hinge is never exactly the same for either side of the box. I usually therefore end up with having to sand up to 0.5mm to get the lid and the box to align perfectly. Sometimes I am able to pack the hinges with 0.1mm thick writing pad paper, just pushing one back a tiny amount.

    What I would ideally like is some form of relatively slow setting Superglue gel that is dibbed on the hinges which are then fitted, and the lid and box are aligned and clamped while the gel dries. I can then drill the start of the hinge holes with a self centreing drill bit ( forget the name , but Carbitool and Bunnings sell them), then whip the hinges off and finish drilling the holes with a tapered gimlet. All sounds too hard?

    I would be interested in how others get their strap hinges fitted perfectly first go
    regards,

    Dengy

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Brisbane
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    Default

    With regard to cutting the lid, i have exactly the same problems but I'm not overly concerned about improving the process as making the two surfaces mate properly is the only time i get to practice and perfect my block plane and chisel skills. Most of the time i just have to remove the tooth marks but on the odd occasion the lid will twist as soon as it is removed so i have to revert to the plane and chisel.

    I also had the same problems with strap hinges and got to the point where i was spending way to much time getting them perfect and got to the stage where i did not want to ever use them again so one day i took the time and made a jig from melamine p/board and am still using the same jig 2 years later and i reckon i now have an 80-90% success rate in getting a perfect alignment.

  4. #3
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    Mar 2008
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    You are killing me with suspense, double.d Would you like to share details of the jig and perhaps a photo or two or three? Or even a drawing, whatever
    I checked a couple of slots tonight. At the hinge end, they were different in length by only 0.15mm, but it certainly made a difference to the alignment at the front and side of the lid/box

    Also, what happened with the 10-20% that did not get perfect alignment? what caused that?
    regards,

    Dengy

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Valla Beach
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    Default

    Hey there Dengy, I know exactly what your saying, its a real pain in the butt. BUT,,.....this week I've been spending some time making things easier for me. You might have noticed on another thread I bought the Gifkin BoxMakers router table from Gifkin Col a few weeks ago. Then we went away for a couple of weeks. Since I come home I've been setting things up for myself. Obviously some of my problems were with my old router table I made myself and the weight of the Triton router etc etc and the surface becoming unflat. But I am loving this new table.

    Your first point with the slicing off of the lid. I never use my sawtable to do this. For some reason with sawtables when you run around 4 sides of something it never seems to match up properly. I use the same technique as Col uses for the slicing off the lid. The cutter I use is

    https://gifkins.com.au/shop/master-cutter-kit/

    No. 5 spiral cutter. You do lose 4mm of your box as opposed to say 2 or 2.5mm with your sawblade, then all your mucking about trying to get it nice and straight again. That's why you use this

    https://gifkins.com.au/shop/variable-joint-spacers/


    Variable spacer unit. This gives you the extra 4mm for your joints which you end up slicing through. I did a very comprehensive description on some other thread on here somewhere on how to use this, for people to print out, I have mine laminated and grab it every time I do dovetails. Depending on the timber used as to how clean the cut is. If my box is 150mm wide or less I touch it up on my belt sander. If its over 150mm wide which my larger boxes are, I have a largish whiteboard with 120 grit sanding glued to it, and run my lid/bottom across it. I also made a very large sanding trowel, (like a cementing trowel), which I can also run across it.

    Your second point, now that I have a perfectly flat table I spent some time making some height jig templates, where I can wind my router bit up till it touches them to set my height. For Smart hinges 3mm,......for those 6mm ones, 2.5mm. Then I made some very accurate spacers from aluminium block to measure between my router bit and my steel piping. For the Smart hinges 34mm, for those 6mm ones, 26mm, and I have another hinge which I use which is 28mm. I lock my steel piping into place and go for it.

    And no I don't get any commission from Col, just find him a very helpful bloke.

    Paul




  6. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
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    Kew, Vic
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    Default

    Hi Joe,

    A few thoughts:

    Lid Separation.

    I haven’t used a router cutter, so I can’t comment there. I have used both a bandsaw and a table saw, and if I had a bandsaw at home I’m 100% certain I’d use that method. Both Andrew Crawford and Ian Hawthorne do it this way and I’ve done it in Andrew’s workshop using this high fence on his bandsaw. Apologies that this is looking at it from the wrong side of the fence, but you get the picture:

    13896AC9-BB4D-45FE-AD1E-A40206BB27AC.jpeg

    It was something of a revelation to me - one lovely cut and no ugly steps where the table saw cuts refused to meet up at the corners. A+++++++

    That said, the only bandsaw I have access to is at our Men’s Shed where the guys use it for cutting everything from sandwiches to granite, happily chewing through nails etc. So I cut my lids off on the table saw. Doug Stowe seems to use a table saw so I feel I’m in good company

    My theory is that there are two key things to consider. The first is ensuring the distance from the bearing surface of the box (the bit touching the fence) to the blade is absolutely exact throughout all four cuts. Using a normal fence if the sides of the box are not absolutely at right angles to the top then the cuts won’t meet because although the box top may be touching the fence it may not be touching at the point where the box meets the table surface.

    To overcome this, I made a lid separation jig which is just an auxiliary table surface (ply) with a fixed 4mm high fence. This very low fence ensures the top edge of the box meets the fence every time.

    The second thing is to ensure the cuts don’t close up on the blade. This is technically known as cuttus crappus. Following an idea from Doug Stowe I made three spacers, exactly the same size as my saw kerf. After a side is cut I insert the spacer and keep it in place with a large elastic band.

    Here’s the whole setup:

    51A662F8-5EBB-444A-B663-7FDE05BD5C48.jpeg

    Does it work? Here is a box I separated last week. Can you see the join?

    2CAB273A-92B8-4B1B-B7CC-5C59CCC3B9BA.jpeg


    Rail hinges.

    For Smarthinges I now use an UHMWPE spacer 34mm long on the router table. Placed between the stop and the 8mm cutter this gives me a 42mm cut overall. I don’t measure anything I don’t have to as I’m more likely to make errors than my stop block is. However (and a very big however) this is only my starting point.
    I always (no exception) make a test cut in a scrap of the same timber, knowing that different timbers can give slightly different results. While this test cut is important for the first two cuts, it is critical when you move the spacer to the other side of the router bit for the next two cuts. Master boxmaker Ian Hawthorne says somewhere on his FB page that given the stops are placed exactly the same distance either side of the router bit, the right to left cuts (the climb cuts) will differ from the left to right cuts. Although it sounds odd, my experience is that this is true, so I always do a test cut (again using the same timber) on the climb cut, and compare with the first test cut. A lot of faffing around, but easier than fixing later.

    As an aside I’m currently in love with my new stops from Jonathan Katz-Moses. Absolutely no deflection - brilliant. My Woodpecker and Kreg stops deflect a little which is the kiss of death for hinges. Yes I could use a piece of wood, but these are very easily adjustable to allow for a secondary fence and to give a small space below the stop to ensure no wood shavings get trapped there and affect the accuracy.

    The Katz-Moses Universal No Deflection Stop Block — Katz-Moses Woodworking

    I’m picky about fitting hinges because I often use veneers on my boxes, so it is impossible to sand the sides of the box after fitting the hinges. If there is any tiny discrepancy that requires a hinge to be brought forward in its slot I cut a tiny piece of Sellotape (clear) and attach it to the end of the hinge. This usually pushes things into square.

    Best regards,

    Brian

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    Townsville, Nth Qld
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    Wow, what an informative and valuable post. Many thanks Brian.

    A couple of things hit me on my first read. Even if you cut the lid off on the bandsaw, you still have to flatten the lid and the box afterwards to remove the fine bandsaw teeth marks.

    I like your auxiliary table on the sawbench, with the 4mm high fence. My question is, how do you keep the box flat on the table surface when pushing it through. I have put boxes against an ordinary fence, and it tends to wobble, especially standing on end. Possibly because the sides are not exactly at right angles to the base of the box ( I always put the base against the fence).

    With regards the rail hinges, how do you compare the two test pieces, cut on either side of the router bit?

    I have found it better to lower the box onto the bit and do a normal cut, as I have had some bad experiences with a climb cut. I lower the box so that there is still a small climb cut to do. This is to make sure the router bit does not hit the box at an angle at the very end of the slot. For my fence, I use a straight 42x18 pine against my normal fence. The lower the fence the better. My stops are two lengths about 300mm of 42x18 clamped at the side of the table. Would this flex and give a wrong length of slot, do you think?
    regards,

    Dengy

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Kew, Vic
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dengue View Post
    Even if you cut the lid off on the bandsaw, you still have to flatten the lid and the box afterwards to remove the fine bandsaw teeth marks.

    True, Joe, but it is a LOT less time on the sanding board


    I like your auxiliary table on the sawbench, with the 4mm high fence. My question is, how do you keep the box flat on the table surface when pushing it through. I have put boxes against an ordinary fence, and it tends to wobble, especially standing on end. Possibly because the sides are not exactly at right angles to the base of the box ( I always put the base against the fence).

    I use my left hand on the top surface to give downward pressure but no lateral pressure at all. All the power taking the box through the saw comes from my right hand which is fractionally below halfway up the box, pressing against the fence and moving the box forward. It wouldn’t be difficult to make a small sled that the box sits on and is clamped into so you can ‘drive’ the sled from way behind the blade.

    With regards the rail hinges, how do you compare the two test pieces, cut on either side of the router bit?

    Mitutoyo calipers!

    I have found it better to lower the box onto the bit and do a normal cut, as I have had some bad experiences with a climb cut. I lower the box so that there is still a small climb cut to do. This is to make sure the router bit does not hit the box at an angle at the very end of the slot. For my fence, I use a straight 42x18 pine against my normal fence. The lower the fence the better.

    For hinges, my fence is as low as possible. I prefer 12mm UHMWPE with a chamfer on the bottom to ensure chips don’t get in the way. I think the low fence is one of the reasons Paul (321) will enjoy the Gifkins router table. Most of Andrew C’s work is done with a fence of around 12mm UHMWPE attached to a piece of MDF.

    My stops are two lengths about 300mm of 42x18 clamped at the side of the table. Would this flex and give a wrong length of slot, do you think?

    I doubt they will flex at all, Joe. However, I like my stops to be as thin as possible (front to back) as this minimises the possibility that the stops are not cut exactly square and therefore cause a minor error in cut length.

    Whatever type of stop you use, make sure it is rigid and does not deflect (as many ‘bought’ stops do) and definitely do the two test cuts (left to right and right to left). I’ll try to find the Ian Hawthorne comment on this I mentioned earlier.

    By the way, for anyone who uses Smarthinge, you may not be aware that these are not currently available as Andrew is changing manufacturer. At the same time, Ian Hawthorne, who sold off his design for the Neat II hinge (similar to Smarthinge) has announced he is about to recommence selling the brass version of his hinge.
    Hope this helps, Joe.

    Best regards,

    Brian

  9. #8
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    Thanks for this very comprehensive response, Brian, I really appreciate it. Lots to think about. I am definitely going to have to re-consider the thickness of the fence and the stops on my router table for cutting the rail hinge slots for starters. I do prefer a bit of height on the fence so that I can slide the lid or box down on to the router bit with it pressed against the fence. I can just manage it with a fence 18mm high
    regards,

    Dengy

  10. #9
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    Apr 2014
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    Kew, Vic
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    Joe,

    Found Ian Hawthorne’s comment. it is on his facebook page. Look for Hawthorne Fine Wooden Boxes and scroll down to the entry for 8th February 2017.

    Brian

  11. #10
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    Well done Brian. There were a lot of posts to plough through, thanks for doing that.
    His method makes a precision Engineering workshop look slipshod
    Good luck with the dreaded daylight saving starting tonight!
    regards,

    Dengy

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
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    Leopold, Victoria
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    4,677

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    Brian, when you say you use UHMWPE as your preferred fence, do you purchase the material or cut it from something else, and how do you attach it to its mount?

    Dallas

  13. #12
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    Apr 2014
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    Hi Dallas,

    I bought mine at Carbatec, but there are plastics firms online where you can order to size.

    UHMW Length - 3/8" x 3/4" x 24" (9.5 x 19 x 610mm) | Workshop Hardware & Fittings - Carbatec

    I use double sided tape to attach to the backing fence, then drill and countersink for screws. I suspect that the tape would be enough on its own.

    Talking of UHMW, boxmaker Ian Hawthorn has a thinnish sheet of UHMW on his router table top to ensure a seamless surface. I want to try that sometime.

    Best regards,

    Brian

  14. #13
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    Feb 2016
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    Canberra
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    5,124

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    By the way, for anyone who uses Smarthinge, you may not be aware that these are not currently available as Andrew is changing manufacturer. At the same time, Ian Hawthorne, who sold off his design for the Neat II hinge (similar to Smarthinge) has announced he is about to recommence selling the brass version of his hinge.
    Good stuff.

    Those hinges are THE BEST.

    I've an absolute mountain of Brusso, but I do love the SmartHinge. Good news on the NeatHinge.

    Did you read the drama with Crawford and Linley. Crikey. What a trauma.

  15. #14
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    Sep 2011
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    Valla Beach
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    $82 plus postage is getting a tad expensive for a pair of hinges,..!!

    Paul

  16. #15
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    Paul,

    Do you mean the Neat II hinge? If so, that sounds like the price for the stainless steel ones. SS hinges always seem much more expensive than brass. Their brass ones are not yet on sale (I think).

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