Thread: Beginner question - problem with technique or materials?

By the looks of things, you are on the right track,
Although pine isn't the best timber to use, it should suffice given the checked-out joints with glue-and-screw method.

Have you tried cutting a series of slits in the pine (across the grain) then using both chisel then coping saw to cut and clean with the grain? But when (coping saw)cutting with the grain, cut before your line to give room to clean it out with a sharp chisel. With soft woods I sometimes use a stanley/craft knife to clean edges (especially because your check-out is relatively small. A sharp pencil or marking gauge to score lines always helps too.

1) Get a japanese style pullsaw - it's the easiest way to improve dovetails that I know of. Fine Tooth Joinery Saw : CARBA-TEC

2) Chisels should be sharp* - not 'straight outta the packet, hasn't been used before' sharp, but 'I've spent 30 minutes sharpening it from new, and NOW its sharp'

3) And watch this:
Hand cut dovetails made easy - YouTube


*Note that sharpening can become a hobby all by itself, for the overly OCD inclined. Google 'scary sharp' as that is a technique doesn't involve three bench grinders, two synthetic oilstones and six natural waterstones, dedicated sharpening bench, a 205 litre drum of camilia oil and a more than functional knowledge of hiragana and katakana.

Oh, you'll find that pine is horrible to stain - tends to be blotchy.

Master splinter is correct. For good fine work, Japanese saws are the way to go. Carbatec have a fair range of "Z" brand saws. I have some and they are good. If you are prepared to wait a few days, get them from Tools from Japan, Japanese woodworking tools direct from Japan. which is run in Tokyo, prices are excellent and it's all 100% pure Japanese stuff.

I buy a LOT from them. Postage is cheaper than within Australia (this is a common theme on the board!). Target, if you might, Nakaya Eaks range. Grab a kataba and a Dozuki and if you are going to rip down big stuff, get a Ryoba . The kataba (very fine, no backing spine) and Dozuki (hard spine, bend resistant ) do slightly different jobs, each excels at its function....and while you can use one for another job, they are cheap enough to get both, they are good investments. The Ryoba are awesome fun to use. I have a "small" and a really big one. I just cut down a tree with my big one! It's like a hand driven chainsaw!

Don't let the names and the Japanese throw you off. The sites in English and the guy who runs it is first class.

Timber, a challenge. So many opinions, so many choices. Me? I'd run up the stands in MDF. I'm not an audiophile, but I know several musicians and one of them commished me to make several speaker/amp boxes and drum storage boxes from MDF. Took the working guts out of the old speakers (they were chipboard) made em up, filled and sanded dead flat then sprayed them with gloss house paint. They looked amazing. He loves them. Sound is good as he was saying the mdf/timber "guides" the sound...I suspect too much weed.

Pine is OK... But you must have SHARP gear. Sharp saws, sharp planes, sharp chisels. You don't need scalpels, but you can't cut meat with a spoon. Really sharp tools are safer, plus they are a wonder to use. Scary sharp is a good technique. As master splinter very correctly asserted, many here become zen practitioners with sharpening and technique debates are numerous. Learn to sharpen, don't buy crappy "consumer grade" stones locally, you will be bitterly disappointed, get a couple of "combo" rocks from the link above, or other pro wood shop. 600, 1000, 4000 grades are a very good start.

You are in Canberra. 3 other lads and myself are getting to know each other and we intend to have a show and tell periodically (well, beer and bangers). We have some pretty good gear and we are keen to build technique. It's a small scene here and resources are scarce. The Internet will be your friend.

With anything, practice practice practice. Get some crappy timber (bunnings specialise in this category) and really learn how to use the tools. Cut cut cut cut cut, plane plane plane plane, chisel out 20 mortises. I feel it's bad form to learn technique on a live job (though that's how I learn sometimes as a small error will haunt you forever (I don't take my own advice, I'm a hypocrite)....many forumites will make up a live sample using MDF or ply to dummy through the process first. This gives you templates, and since you have a router, a bearing topped cutter will give you perfect copies.

There are many places to buy quality timber in Canberra, Monaro timber is a very good start.

All of the above, but couple of other comments.

- turning a coping saw, in order to do a tight turn, ie in the width of the blade, don't push the saw down. Just work back and forth in the hole, twisting gently. The teeth will cut sideways and you don't cut forwards

- fluffy edges, problem with pine. Try cutting the marking lines with a Stanley knife rather than drawing with a pencil. May help a bit.

With practice you should be able to cut a fraction if a mm off the cut line with a coping saw. Just go slow and steer the saw along the inside of the line.

And for MDF....joins should be no more than PVA and some gun nails. Anything else is overkill.

Wow, thanks for taking the time and replying everyone - all extremely helpful! Since this I've:

• Tried out the stain I was planning to use on the pine. It looks a bit fail, and nothing like I expected. When time allows I'm going to sand another scrap piece with something a little more coarse and try again, but my inclination so far is to start investigating a different timber (and I'm warming to the MDF idea as well)
• Ordered a couple of saws, sharpening gear and a few other odds and ends from Tools from Japan - fantastic site, thanks for the heads up. I'm already planning the next order in the back of my head!
• Watched the video that was linked over and over. I don't think watching people manage precision like that with such (apparent) ease ever gets old!

As time allows (probably the weekend at this stage), I'm going to do some practice with the coping saw while I wait for all the new bits and pieces to arrive, as well as using a stanley knife to cut the measurements instead of marking with a pencil. I did try with an awl for a little bit, but I think I was just crushing the fibers rather than cutting them - likely not sharp enough either in hindsight). Would like to try with the chisels, but I suspect that's a waste of time until I can sharpen them up, so I'll see how that goes.

Thanks again all - greatly appreciated! I'll be sure to post updates once the goodies have arrived and I've had another crack at this.

As an aside: my apologies if the box making sub-forum isn't the smartest place for this. The bit I'm currently working on is box shaped, and that's about as far as the thinking went on that front. More than happy if this needs to be moved to somewhere more appropriate!

If looking for another inspirational hand cut dovetail video look at this one.....
Handcut Dovetails on Vimeo

cheers

Looking at the picture you've shown us, you seem to be cutting the dovetails across the grain. If that's so, it will never work, they should be along the grain. That's why you are finding sometimes they break off, and also is a big part of why you aren't able to get neat edges. If the tails break off when you're cutting them, then they aren't going to be real strong in service either.

A couple of other points (or opinions).

Pine will stain very nicely - but you need to use a Pine Sealer first. Cabots make one - get it from Bunnings.
Coping saws are designed to cut curves, not straight lines. Hence wrong tool for the job.
Japanese saws are nice, but I reckon (apologies to splinter and the others, but I have to disagree) they are not a good tool for beginners. The problem is that they are ballistic (in the broad sense of the word, in that once they get started their trajectory is fixed). You need a dovetail saw, which allows you to make small corrections to direction as you progress.

cheers
Arron

Originally Posted by Arron

Looking at the picture you've shown us, you seem to be cutting the dovetails across the grain. If that's so, it will never work, they should be along the grain.

cheers
Arron

Shoot is he attempting dovetails? Hmmm, beginner cutting dovetails with pine....

Cant start a thread and not follow up, thats not sporting

Did the tools come in from Japan? I'd bet the ToolsFromJapan guy is asking himself ### are all these orders from Canberra for!!! I know a few more people who have ordered recently too.

Slidingdovetail is right. Getting a good dovetail is like playing classical guitar - lots of practice. There is no substitute, but they are fun to master.

E

Originally Posted by slidingdovetail

Shoot is he attempting dovetails? Hmmm, beginner cutting dovetails with pine....

Just box joints, the angles aren't quite that bad (I hope)!

No luck yet on the deliveries. I was really hoping I'd get home from work today to either a parcel on the back doorstep or a notice to go collect from the PO but no dice.

It's mostly been the waiting game since I ordered, but I've made a little progress in the meantime:

• Tried some more cuts in the opposite direction to what I was doing before (i.e. with the grain now) and they look much cleaner in general - I'm pretty stoked about this, and am looking forward to being able to sharpen my chisels and see how they it all turns out with those in the mix as well. I suppose it makes sense but I didn't really think about the direction of the grain at all when I was marking this up.
• Played around with the coping saw and tried to work on turning on the spot - the turning circle is down to next to nothing now, instead of at least a centimetre - I think I was just applying way too much pressure while trying to turn it before.
• Tried a little more with the pine and stains, and definitely need to invest in a sealer to see if I can't get it closer to what I want with that (as it looks rubbish so far).
• Depending on how I go with the sealer, I'm leaning heavily towards trying to work with other kinds of timber at this stage, and still haven't dismissed the MDF idea.

In the morning I'll head off to Bunnings, grab the sealer and a few other odds and ends, then head out to have a look at what's on offer at Thor's Hammer. I was a little horrified reading about old growth forests and the like when I was researching timber, so I think these guys will be my first port of call.

I figure if the sealer and stain on the pine works out, anything I discover at Thor's Hammer can go towards my next project (trying not to get too far ahead of myself, but a little knowledge is a dangerous thing).

Things you learn from mistakes, especially your own, tend to stay learnt.

Regards

Go light on the sealer. Less is more.

You can also use a diluted shellack. Mix 1/3rd the volume into the thinner and wipe it on. Evaporates in a minute or two and then a quick sand. Does a good job too.

Thors is awesome. The machines are to beheld. Beastly.

+1 for shellac as a sealer.