Thread: How to ebonise box sides

Jill, how did your tests go?

India Ink arrived today, and have just cut up kwila timber for testing. Cannot get the tannic acid powder until Thursday. Out of action tomorrow, visit to Opthalmologist, and will spend most of the day in a dark room

Should have something for you Thursday pm

Originally Posted by JillB

India Ink arrived today, and have just cut up kwila timber for testing. Cannot get the tannic acid powder until Thursday. Out of action tomorrow, visit to Opthalmologist, and will spend most of the day in a dark room

Should have something for you Thursday pm

When you do get a chance with the tannic acid, I found it works best to put the timber in the acid and heat to near boiling, then let it cool with the timber still in the acid, let dry overnight, then do the ebonising thing. Blackest result so far.

I just did some tests with the tannic acid at twice the strength, (22 grams per litre of hot water), with much better and faster results.
It definitely pays to let the tannic acid soak in well and dry before applying the ebonising iron acetate solution, too.

Hi Humphrey, you are producing some excellent results. I won't have my results until tomorrow at the earliest, unfortunately, eye problems abound just now, typing with one eye closed .

How would adding a litre of boiling water to 20gm tannivin powder in a glass jar, then soaking the timber in it until it cools, then letting the timber dry overnight?

I did get an email from a friend of mine who said Neil Ellis advised him to apply Ubeaut White Shellac over the top of India Ink, then cut it with 1200 grit after it's dry and then use EEE. Should give you an amazing finish"

That would also apply to the other finishes that we are testing, I imagine.

Originally Posted by JillB

Hi Humphrey, you are producing some excellent results. I won't have my results until tomorrow at the earliest, unfortunately, eye problems abound just now, typing with one eye closed .

How would adding a litre of boiling water to 20gm tannivin powder in a glass jar, then soaking the timber in it until it cools, then letting the timber dry overnight?

That should work well. You won't be able to re-use that litre without loss of strength though, as opposed to mixing it then using some of it to soak in. With the low cost of tanivin, though, it's not really a worry.

The reason I allow the liquid to cool before removing the timber is (my logic only) that when the timber is heated in the liquid, the air in the timber should expand and a little will be forced out. Then, as the liquid cools and the air contracts it should literally suck the solution into the timber.

I've been doing a fair bit of reading trying to understand the chemical process of making the ebonising solution, to improve it. One thing I've learned is that once the reaction is complete, 99% of the steel wool is gone and the mix has stopped bubbling, rather than filtering it's better to simply let the mix sit for a day and the remaining iron solids and iron oxide will precipitate to the bottom. Just pour off the clear liquid. The solids aren't needed. The iron acetate will be in solution in the acetic acid/water.
Doing this twice over leaves a nice clean reddish fluid that leaves no rust particles on the timber. The reaction seems slightly faster than with the dirty version, too.

Just read your new post.
I'm looking forward to seeing the results of India ink. With white shellac, it would look very much like the original Black Japan. Great finish for boxes etc.

Sorry to hear aboutt the eye problem. Mine are really weak, but no other specific troubles.

All tests carried out on kwlila, a hard timber with tight grain, high tannin content.

All India Ink and FW Prooftint Black Japan applied with disposable foam brushes.

All tests used two coats, the 2nd applied after the first is well and truly dried

India Ink as used in Rapidograph drafting pens, bought here on eBay.

Tests carried out, shown in photos below

1. bare kwila board, untouched

2. 2 coats of India Ink as used in Rapidograph drafting pen, applied 2 hours apart

3. 2 coats of FW Prooftint stain, colour Black Japan

4. 1 coat of FW Prooftint, colour Black, dry for 2 hours, apply 1 coat of FW Prooftint stain, colour Black Japan - as recommended on FW web site for deepest black finish

5. board soaked in hot Condy's Crystal (potassium permanganate) for an hour

6. Tannic acid for 3 hours, with 10g/L concentrate, board soaked in hot solution until cool, dried overnight

7. Liquid nightmare painted over tannic acid treated board

8. Liquid nightmare painted over tannic acid treated board, FW Prooftint Black Japan stain as final coat

9. A radiata pine board was given two coats of India Ink, 3 hours apart

10. A radiata pine board was soaked in hot Condy's Crystals for an hour

Each of the boards are shown in sunlight. The first taken facing the sunlight and getting the reflection of the sun off the board to show up all defects; the 2nd photos of each board were taken at 90 degrees to the direction of the suns rays on the board ( sun coming in from the left) . All taken within 30 minutes of each other, in the same position. You can see the angle each shot was taken from the shadow of each board

Conclusion:

For the kwila timber, here is really not much difference between the India Ink and the finishes using the FW Prooftint Japan Black stain, but for depth of finish, and ease of application, and beautiful highlighting of the grain, I personally think that India Ink is the way to go, but the Prooftint is easier to obtain.

The India Ink can be coated with white shellac, rubbed back with 1200 grit paper, and then Ubeaut Ultrashine cutting compound and Ubeaut Traditional Wax applied - should give a great finish.

Not sure about using white shellac (100% IMS) over spirit based Prooftint Black Japan stain - I don't think it would work

The India Ink was found to work very well on radiata pine as well


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Test 1: bare kwila board, untouched

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Test 2 above: 2 coats of India Ink as used in Rapidograph drafting pen,
2nd coat applied 2 hours after first
Test 3_1.JPGTest 3_2.JPG

Test 3 above: 2 coats of FW Prooftint stain, colour Black Japan, applied 2 hours apart

Test 4_1.JPGTest 4_2.JPG

Test 4 above: 1 coat of FW Prooftint, colour Black, dry for 2 hours, apply 1 coat of
FW Prooftint stain, colour Black Japan - as recommended on FW web site for deepest black finish

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Test 5 above: board soaked in hot Condy's Crystal (potassium permanganate) for an hour


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Test 6 above: Tannic acid for 3 hours, with 10g/L concentrate,
board soaked in hot solution until cool, dried overnight.
This treatment gave a beautiful consistent tan / brown colour

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Test 7 above: Liquid nightmare painted over tannic acid treated board,
still showing brown background


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Test 8 above: Liquid nightmare painted over tannic acid treated board, as above,
with FW Prooftint Black Japan stain as final coat

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Test 9 above: Pine treated with two coats of India Ink



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Test 10 above: Pine soaked in Condy's Crystals for an hour

Wow, I'm surprised the Kwila didn't blacken properly with Liquid Nightmare, considering the high tannin content. Our Jarrah and other Eucalypts darken much better.
NG Rosewood doesn't blacken well either, despite a reasonable level of tannins. I thought maybe it was due to the oiliness. Might be the same story with Kwila/Merbau.

Looks like dying with India ink is the go for general use, but I'm getting such good results that I'll stick with ebonising for timbers that I know blacken well. A light sand, a burnish with a cloth then wax and it's good-to-go. I'm after a low gloss finish on my current project. For a high-gloss finish, I'd do it your way - shellac then wax.

Just finished doing some Blackbutt parts with Liquid nightmare over Tannic Acid - worked well.
This is after one round of ebonising. It allows a little of the natural timber colour to show through as a slight brown tint. It would go jet black with a second.
100_3685.JPG

Great set of tests, Jill.
I'm putting India ink on my shopping list.

Thanks for all the testing Humphrey and Jill. A comment about the kwila colour with liquid nightmare. I think this bears out that kwila does't actually have a really high tannin content, some of that colour that is so infamous for leaching out of kwila is probably a resin/dye of a different chemical class. There are numerous links pointing to the use of kwila wood as a source of dye, possibly as a traditional dye in Asian countries because I can't find many references other than "the timber is a dye source", except this one.

OH BTW, you could try putting the Prooftint Black Japan on in a weak shellac mix (1/4lb cut), which will help fix it, if you want to use a shellac finish. And if that colour is too weak, put your stain on first, then use the stain in weak shellac and with each subsequent coat take off from you mother stock of stain/shellac what you need for the next coat and dilute it with 1 or 2 lb cut shellac by 25%, 50% 75% - OK those numbers are rubbery - play around trial and error. Each coat will want to 'pull' a little bit of dye out, ie redissolve it, so if you put some dye in each layer, it will pull less, or if you want to think of it this way, put back what it took out. As you taper off you eventually have it sealed under straight shellac. I had to do this on a small restoration job I had and the only dyes I could get the right colour mix were prooftint dyes and it had to be a shellac finish. I don't know if there is an easier way or if this is the way professional finishers do it, but it worked for me.

Thanks Humphrey and mic-d for your kind words. It has been an interesting exercise, and I hope others benefit from it. Humphrey is certainly getting some amazing results with his tannic acid solution and Liquid Nightmare brew.

A couple of more points I should have added above:
a) I actually put two coats of Liquid Nightmare over the tannic acid soaked board, a couple of hours apart, and still got the brown background
b) The shellac is definitely not compatible with any spirit based Prooftint products, but you can coat with oil OK
c) You cannot see it in the photos, but when I lined up the boards side by side, the India Ink is definitely the pick of the lot for depth and consistency

Originally Posted by JillB

Humphrey is certainly getting some amazing results with his tannic acid solution and Liquid Nightmare brew.

Thanks to our lovely gum trees - it seems they stand out as an Oz timber choice for ebonising, when there is a choice.
For all else - India ink it is.

Can't wait to see your box, Jill. Doing a WIP?

Another thought just crossed my mind - one I overlooked earlier.

Timber ebonised with Liquid Nightmare can still be readily glued with PVA, since the timber remains porous.

Does anyone know if timber treated with India ink can be glued with PVA, or other adhesives, for that matter, or if the areas to be glued will need to be masked during India ink application?
(My guess is that it will glue OK, since ther's no sealer or binder in India ink, but I have to ask.)

Sorry I can't help, Humphrey, have a house full of visitors for a surprise 40th (eldest son), and then off on a 4 week holiday Monday, and haven't packed - bit hectic to say the least