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Thread: Messmate in NZ

  1. #1
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    Default Messmate in NZ

    Posting a photo on Treecycle's Messmate thread reminded me that it's a long time since my last post so I thought to take the opportunity to show some boxes made with locally grown Messmate. I'm not sure where the trees are located but I live in Blenheim at the top of the South Island and my wood was sourced from a local mill so they must have found a tree somewhere in this area.

    This jewellery box was a commission and was made from Messmate and Swamp Kauri with the interior pieces from Kahikatea. Linings are microsuede and satin and the finish is Danish Oil. The customer specified that the box should be single layer, have multiple small containers, an area for rings and space for necklaces. This was a Christmas present for her mother and we collaborated a bit on size and layout - the box measures 320 x 220 x 80.

    Nothing too tricky about construction once I had settled on a design, but the lid stay did give me some problems. I do tend to start with a rough idea and sort out details as I go and once I realised that a simple cord or chain to restrain the quite heavy lid would fall into the box and get tangled with a lady's prized possessions, I had to think of something else. The brass stay had to be outside the lining so it was made to retract into the lid and shaped to minimise visible gaps or slots. Took a bit of head scratching but worked out fine in the end. My wife did a fine job on the satin pocket and I cut the hanger from a piece of brass. Ultimately not a bad Christmas present I reckon.


    IMG_4100.jpg IMG_4103.jpg IMG_4105.jpg IMG_4107.jpg IMG_4108.jpg IMG_4109.jpg


    Somehow all the Messmate I've come across seems to have spectacular figure with incredible depth to the curl. The following small boxes illustrate this although my photos don't do the wood justice. This first box is a design I've used a lot, simple but effective with pretty much any suitable contrasting woods. It's small, 230 x 90 x 50, made from Messmate and Matai - little boxes like this are handy for lots of things and people seem to love the wooden hinges. The other couple are not Messmate but show an example made for a hand made knife (a 21st birthday present) and a view of the hinges - much cheaper than brass, easy to make and self-aligning.

    IMG_5264.jpg IMG_5256.jpg IMG_5090.jpg IMG_5253.jpg

    Finally here's a holiday project made by my 13 year old grand-daughter during the Christmas school holidays. She did a lovely job in Grand-dad's workshop so we were both happy. Not enough kids getting a shot at this kind of thing.

    IMG_5155.jpg IMG_5153.jpg IMG_5170.jpg
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  3. #2
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    Very nice boxes with some really special wood in them. I didn't know you had wood with such spectacular grain over there.
    Be interested in how you make those hinges as you say they're self aligning.
    Dallas

  4. #3
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    Some very nice boxes there and no doubt a lot of work involved. Well done. Very ingenious hinges.

    Paul

  5. #4
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    Beautiful work!

    I would also like to know more about the hinges.

    Sent from my SM-G781B using Tapatalk

  6. #5
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    Okay gents, give me a day or two to get my act together and I'll post a brief how-to-do-it on the hinges.

  7. #6
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    Default Easy wooden hinges

    I first came across this hinge at the Centre for Fine Woodworking, a renowned woodworking school at Nelson, about 100 km from my home. A visiting Japanese boxmaker, Norio Tanno, held a seminar where he demonstrated how the hinge was made, so I can't claim ownership of the idea or construction method and I don't feel I'm giving away any secrets here. I've used them a lot since that day in 2013 and I do feel they are hard to beat as a hinge on a small box (and sometimes on quite big boxes). I've seen some exquisite wooden hinges, sometimes with multiple knuckles or carved like a leaf for example, and while they are usually beautiful they sometimes look like afterthoughts, while these look like part of the box (at least to me).

    This is what we are making - as you can see we are going to shape a small piece of wood then cut it in two to make one hinge. I don't think the type of wood is particularly important although something hard and resistant to splitting would be preferable as hinges do get accidentally stressed occasionally. I normally use Jarrah but if the lid panel is suitable I might use the same wood for the hinges as shown in the last photo at the beginning of this thread. For the purposes of this instruction I'm using a scrap piece of Macrocarpa.

    IMG_5386.jpg

    First you have to decide how big your hinge will be. Typically the hinges for my small boxes will be made from about 25mm by 9mm stock, with the length of the blank to suit the height of the box. In this case it's 70mm for a box 45mm high. I normally make batches of a dozen or so but here the macrocarpa is long enough for just six hinges - less than that can get a bit clumsy later in the process. So machine up a suitable batten, or several if that's your preference, then cut it into short blanks. I use a sled on the tablesaw although the complete process could readily be done with hand tools if that's your style.

    IMG_5382.jpg IMG_5389.jpg

    Next step is to line all your blanks up and tape them tightly together. I sometimes make the blanks a little long then tape them and even the ends up on the table saw. It really doesn't matter how you do this as long as the final pieces are not too short - too long is okay. Now you have a block which can be run across the router table to round the ends as shown below.

    I use a 3/8" round over bit because I happen to have one and you need to match the blank thickness to a suitable bit, or the other way around if you have to acquire a router bit to do the job - I hope everyone understood that garbled explanation. Route one edge, top and bottom, then flip the block and do the other edge - I normally sneak up with about three passes. Use a backing block to stop tear-out or add a sacrificial blank at each end before you tape the stack.

    It's almost inconceivable that the edges of the block will be perfectly rounded, at least mine never are, so eyeball your block and true it up with a sanding block. Don't get carried away, it doesn't have to be perfect, if it looks good enough then it probably is.

    IMG_5391.jpg IMG_5392.jpg IMG_5393.jpg

    Okay, that's part one. I'll continue with part 2 in the next day or two, although I expect most of you can see where this is headed. If I've confused anyone throw your questions on the thread and I'll do my best to clarify.

  8. #7
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    Perfect explanation so far. Look forward to the next instalment.
    Dallas

  9. #8
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    Very nice boxes, especially knife box with wooden hinges!

  10. #9
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    To continue, the next step is to remove the tape from your block of blanks then line them up as shown in photo 1 below and re-tape them together firmly. It should be evident from the photos that a couple of saw cuts in each end of the new block will remove a section from each blank and you'll finish up with a bunch of bits that look like those in the fourth photo. Note that the waste at each end is taken from opposite sides. This is mainly to align the grain - I'll explain later.

    The object with the first cut is to seperate off exactly half the width of the block, so remember to allow for the width of the saw blade before you cut - take too much and you go directly back to part 1. The height of the blade for that first cut is slightly greater than the thickness of a single blank, in this case that's 9mm plus a bit. 10mm is ideal - it's not critical but that extra bit allows the hinge to open past 90º.

    There are many ways to remove the waste with a second cut but this is my method, the sled being a fairly safe way to handle small parts. Obviously you have to set the blade height and stop position appropriately. If you make the second cut against the rip fence make sure the bits to be removed are on the open side of the blade - in other words not trapped between the blade and the fence where the small off-cuts will undoubtedly wedge and kick back, chewing hunks out of the block. Don't ask how I know that!


    IMG_5395.jpg IMG_5398.jpg IMG_5401.jpg IMG_5406.jpg

    Next step is to drill holes for the pivot pins. Pins can be cut from any round stock metal, I use bronze brazing rod which happens to be 2.37mm in diameter - 3/32" in the old money. Norio used nice little stainless steel spring pins which are quite expensive. It doesn't really matter what you use (you could cut pieces from a nail) as long as you can find a matching size drill and there is still a reasonable amount of wood left around the pin.

    I made a cam lock jig to hold the pieces and once it's properly aligned drilling is a very quick process. I guess you could mark, centre punch and hand hold the blanks but you do need to use a drill press as angled holes won't work. I like to start the holes with a machinists centre drill (very stable and will not run off line) and once I've done them all I go back and take them to full depth with a conventional twist drill. Alignment of the hole is quite important, so take the time to get that right with a test piece. It needs to be right in the centre (4.5mm from each edge in this application) and not more than 4.5mm from the end - 4mm would be ideal, then drill about 80% of the way through.

    IMG_5407.jpg IMG_5446.jpg

    Now you need to cut each blank in two (keep the pairs together) with the position of the cut dependent on where you will cut your box lid off - you'll get the idea when we look at fitting the hinges. Having done that cut pins of a suitable length, in this case 6 or 7 mm, and press the two halves together. The third photo below shows a hinge fully open - you can see how that 1mm clearance allows it to swing past 90º. Now, the reason for aligning the grain mentioned earlier and for keeping the pairs together, is illustrated in the box below. Those hinges would have looked completely wrong if the darker colour down the edge had changed edges halfway down, so keep that kind of thing in mind.

    IMG_5411.jpg IMG_5414.jpg IMG_5244.jpg


    This seems like a long winded explanation but I figure if I'm going to do it I might as well do it properly, which means passing on as much knowledge as I can. That is enough for tonight, part 3 will be about fitting the hinges to a box (or something like a box).


  11. #10
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    Beautiful work.

    Ross

  12. #11
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    Default Easy Wooden Hinges Part 3

    Okay, here’s part 3. Now that you have your hinges made, or at least know how to make them, we need to prepare the box. A major advantage to this type of hinge is that it is self aligning and the way this is achieved is that the box is prepared before the lid is parted off. When I make a box with conventional hinges I make the box parts, finish the inside, do the glue-up, part off the lid then fit my hinges and attach the lid. Then once all that is complete I finish the outside and sometimes that’s a bit fraught because the lid never quite lines up and a lot of sanding is needed. Some of you with superior skills won’t have this problem but I’m sure most will be familiar with what I am talking about.


    The wooden hinge box preparation is similar. You do the glue-up but then cut rebates for the hinges and sand the back of the box ready for finish before parting off the lid. Once the hinges are fitted everything should align perfectly. To cut the rebates I use a flat top toothed blade and my table saw sled and cut a rebate depth about half the hinge thickness. I’ll make the outside cuts using a stop then measure across and make the inside cuts - you want the hinges to be a snug fit so sneak up on the width using a hinge as a gauge. Once that’s done remove the waste - I just work across with the saw but a router is okay as well. I clean up the rebate if it requires it with a small sanding stick.

    IMG_5431.jpg IMG_5433.jpg


    Draw a line on the box where you intend to seperate the lid and lightly draw a line across the hinges in line with the centre of the pin, so that when the hinges are fitted you can set the pivot points exactly where you want them. Now you can cut the lid off using whatever method you prefer, for me it’s the tablesaw. Clean up the matching faces as you normally would and if you would normally bevel the edges or round over the top or bottom edges of the box then now is the time to do that, particularly on the back as the hinges protruding make this difficult once they are glued in place. Press the hinges in place to align everything and tape the top firmly to the box, then mark the glue areas and mask each side of the rebate to catch any glue.

    IMG_5434.jpg IMG_5435.jpg



    Almost there, but before fitting the hinges you must make sure they are not going to bind. Lay one of your hinges on a flat surface and lightly press one half down. Now move the other half through 90º to see if there is clearance through the full range of motion - you will feel it bind and drag the hinge across the surface if it’s not clear. Do this for both halves, both ways on both hinges, in other words 4 times on each hinge. If there is binding use a small sanding stick or a file to clean up the faulty surface until it’s clear. This is critical as you don’t want to glue everything up then find the hinge only moves part way through it’s range.


    Once everything is okay with the hinges apply glue to the areas you’ve marked, I use Titebond, being careful not to get any in places it shouldn’t be. To be super safe you could wax the non glue areas - I’ve done that but don’t always bother these days. Press the hinges in place making sure the centre lines are in line with the join, that they are seated in the rebate, particularly where the join will show top and bottom, and that they are mirror images - a left hand and right hand hinge. Clamp them lightly - tape, rubber bands or place a weight on the hinges - whatever you prefer. I don’t normally use clamps across the box for fear of breaking or distorting something.


    That’s it. Once the glue is dry you can trim the excess hinge away using table saw, band saw or hand saw and shape the hinge profile to suit your taste. I rough out the shape on my disc sander and refine it with a sanding block. I had other work in progress when I started this so decided not to take extra time building a box so just cut a block of wood for the illustrations - first time I’ve made a Blox! Happily, even though this was a pretty rough and ready job the hinges fit well and operate nicely. Have a go, I bet if you use these once you will use them again.

    IMG_5441.jpgIMG_5442.jpgIMG_5445.jpg









  13. #12
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    Explanation: I copied Rex's post to this thread as it is more appropriate and I did not want to hijack Treecycle's Messmate thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rex Ashwell
    ... I'm a kiwi so please excuse my ignorance of Australian hardwoods but I've made several boxes using locally grown Eucalyptus Obliqua, which my research indicates is called Messmate or Stringybark in Aussie. This box has a Swamp Kauri lid panel but the lovely curly wood is Messmate. I have quite a bit of this and I was surprised to see how different the Messmate in your box is - am I being mislead by my local mill?

    Messmate-img_4100-1-jpg


    ...
    Very nice work, Rex, and welcome to the confusing and frustrating world of Australian timber names. Names just vary!

    The standard references for Australian timbers are:


    And the name messmate is used for at least three totally different timbers:
    • swamp messmate, Eucalyptus robusta, central NSW through Queensland,
    • Gympie messmate, E cloezianna, Queensland,
    • messmate or messmate stringbark, E obliqua, Victoria and Tasmania.


    To my untutored eye, the timber in your box looks like fiddleback messmate (E obliqua). Fiddleback occurs in many species of eucalypts and acacias, but in messmate is rarely as pronounced as in your specimen; its usually much more subtle. Here are photos of subtle fiddleback in messmate and prominent fiddleback in Tamanian blackwood (Acacia melanoxlyn):

    Fiddleback 3.jpg Fiddleback 2.jpg

    Here (Tas) messmate is still harvested from old growth trees and from natural regrowth (in areas logged 80-100+ years ago). None comes from plantations.

    It would be most interesting to know how some messmate planting material got over the Ditch 100 years ago.

    PS: The floors of my house built in the 1880's contain a large proportion of messmate and are still going well.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  14. #13
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    Excellent tutorial Rex. Thanks for all the effort you put into it and I look forward to having a go at them.
    Do you reckon you can sell your Blox
    Dallas

  15. #14
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    Thanks Graeme for both the information on messmate and your assistance when I was having trouble with photographs on this thread.

    I'm quite sure the wood used in the jewellery box I posted is Eucalyptus Obliqua as that piece was given to me by a very knowledgable woodworker. Subsequently I bought 4 metres of E Obliqua at a local mill, also a knowledgable guy. They had quite stack of 4 metre boards, milled as floor boards 120mm by 18mm, all with very pronounced curly grain like the piece I already had but magnified about 3 times, so the appearance is of a wider and deeper curl - quite beautiful but a pity it had been cut so narrow. Once the T&G strips and bottom grooves are trimmed off it's down to 105mm x 15mm with the inevitable tear-out to remove. Worth the effort for some jobs though.

    How did it come to be growing here? That's anyone's guess but there are a lot of eucalypts growing in NZ, Blue Gum, flowering gums, Blackwood and a raft of others are common, all brought here from Australia of course. Blackwood is grown commercially in small quantities and a number of other varieties are being researched in this area as potential untreated posts in the vineyards, where treated pine is currently used and is suspected of leaching cyanide compounds into the soil.

    Interesting that you say the fiddleback figure is seldom as pronounced as the wood I have. All the messmate I have ever seen is like that, which is why I came to post on Treecycle's thread in the first place. I'll post some photos when I have time - being called to the evening meal at the moment!

  16. #15
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    Here are a couple of photos which clearly show the different size of the curl in the two pieces of Messmate that I have. I left the waney edge on the lid of the completed box because it so
    clearly shows the wavy grain in cross section - quite amazing and unlike anything I've seen before. How on earth do trees grow like this? To give you an idea of scale the lid panel in the larger box is 255mm x 100mm

    IMG_5455.jpg IMG_5459.jpg

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