Thread: Experiment by novice

Hi Scott

I will try to help answer a few of your questions as I can but I will also be asking a couple of questions.

First off, a question, what exactly is de-waxed shellac? I have read about it in the forums but no idea actually what it is.

I have been using shellac finishes on antiques and antique joinery for the past 20 + years. I always have purchased orange shellac, from places like Mitre 10 and/or my local specialist paint shop. I always use metho, never have used denatured alchol. Metho is cheap and works fine. Again I really don't know what denatured alchol is or why it should be any better than metho. I have read about some specific issues with some grades of metho, but from my experience, and I have some, I can't say I have ever found this to be an issue.

I always coat, using either a brush, or a pad, or in some cases both, depending on what stage of the finishing process I am at. Table tops etc, I like to use a pad to try to get the most even build up of coats. I have tried the so called method of adding a little oil to the pad when polishing (aka French Polishing) but can't say I found it really improved or made a significant difference in the final finish. But perhaps I need more experience in this ?

After applying a number of coats (3-4), and allowed to harden, I cut back using 400 grade paper, then re-apply more coats, before cutting back again, then apply more coats (so all up in total around 10 coats), before finally cutting back with 0000 ultra fine steel wool and thereafter buffing up with bees wax polish. So my point here is if the shellac I am using is waxed shellac then there is absolutely no problems in using a bees wax polish as the final stage in finishing.

Now back to your question re MDF, an interesting idea. First off, if you are going to dilute timbermate down, what will you use, water or metho ? I suspect it should work ok, the only thing is that you may need to add a little wood dye depending on the colour of the mdf and timbermate to try to get a level of consistency in colour. Applying shellac afterwards again should work as afterall when filling holes with timbermate, as I have done plenty of times, the shellac takes to that perfectly fine.

The one thing I should note is that applying multiple coats of shellac (the more the better in terms of depth of gloss, allowing the grain of the timber to come through) while this works, to get the best gloss you do need to cut back with 0000 steel wool and wax polish the surface. Just applying shellac itself from my experience is not sufficient, nor will provide the right sort of surface feel.

Hope that helps a little.

Cheers
Dave

Originally Posted by Horsecroft88

Hi Scott

I will try to help answer a few of your questions as I can but I will also be asking a couple of questions.

First off, a question, what exactly is de-waxed shellac? I have read about it in the forums but no idea actually what it is.

I have been using shellac finishes on antiques and antique joinery for the past 20 + years. I always have purchased orange shellac, from places like Mitre 10 and/or my local specialist paint shop. I always use metho, never have used denatured alchol. Metho is cheap and works fine. Again I really don't know what denatured alchol is or why it should be any better than metho. I have read about some specific issues with some grades of metho, but from my experience, and I have some, I can't say I have ever found this to be an issue.

I always coat, using either a brush, or a pad, or in some cases both, depending on what stage of the finishing process I am at. Table tops etc, I like to use a pad to try to get the most even build up of coats. I have tried the so called method of adding a little oil to the pad when polishing (aka French Polishing) but can't say I found it really improved or made a significant difference in the final finish. But perhaps I need more experience in this ?

After applying a number of coats (3-4), and allowed to harden, I cut back using 400 grade paper, then re-apply more coats, before cutting back again, then apply more coats (so all up in total around 10 coats), before finally cutting back with 0000 ultra fine steel wool and thereafter buffing up with bees wax polish. So my point here is if the shellac I am using is waxed shellac then there is absolutely no problems in using a bees wax polish as the final stage in finishing.

Now back to your question re MDF, an interesting idea. First off, if you are going to dilute timbermate down, what will you use, water or metho ? I suspect it should work ok, the only thing is that you may need to add a little wood dye depending on the colour of the mdf and timbermate to try to get a level of consistency in colour. Applying shellac afterwards again should work as afterall when filling holes with timbermate, as I have done plenty of times, the shellac takes to that perfectly fine.

The one thing I should note is that applying multiple coats of shellac (the more the better in terms of depth of gloss, allowing the grain of the timber to come through) while this works, to get the best gloss you do need to cut back with 0000 steel wool and wax polish the surface. Just applying shellac itself from my experience is not sufficient, nor will provide the right sort of surface feel.

Hope that helps a little.

Cheers
Dave

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the speedy response (Ironically, I was off reading your lengthy post relating to your trials & tribulations or should I say triumph off your table restoration. Nice work on that job

I was going to dilute the timbermate with water as it's water based. I know sometimes you can over read a topic, whereby you're probably best to stop reading & just get stuck into it. From the reading I have been doing many people have championed de-waxed shellac so I assumed perhaps incorrectly that due to 'regular' shellac wax content it may perhaps interfere with other wax finishes.

I have the orange shellac flakes and was looking for guidance in how best to use them, being new to shellac et all. I'm looking forward to experimenting and to see what comes of my little project.

In reading your posts & others I have just ordered Neil's book as a reference guide. It looks to be a more than worthwhile investment.

Cheers again,

Scott

Originally Posted by Ozziespur

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the speedy response (Ironically, I was off reading your lengthy post relating to your trials & tribulations or should I say triumph off your table restoration. Nice work on that job

I was going to dilute the timbermate with water as it's water based. I know sometimes you can over read a topic, whereby you're probably best to stop reading & just get stuck into it. From the reading I have been doing many people have championed de-waxed shellac so I assumed perhaps incorrectly that due to 'regular' shellac wax content it may perhaps interfere with other wax finishes.

I have the orange shellac flakes and was looking for guidance in how best to use them, being new to shellac et all. I'm looking forward to experimenting and to see what comes of my little project.

In reading your posts & others I have just ordered Neil's book as a reference guide. It looks to be a more than worthwhile investment.

Cheers again,

Scott

Thanks Scott for the vote in confidence in the table, it certainly was an interesting little project for me. Still have plenty more projects to complete. I am slowly continuing with the dresser top restoration/re-polishing. Such projects can take time, especially when at night I am often too stuffed after day at the office and weekends seem to be getting consumed by other projects, etc, and especially more so at this time of year. I will post more pics when have something worthwhile showing.

Ah of course timbermate is water based, how dumb of me, I should have known !! Yes know what you mean re the old over-reading thing, I too am definitely one who likes to know first how best to something before heading off and doing it, especially if there is a risk of stuffing up. I am a great believer in that there really is no such thing as a dumb question. I still am learning plenty from everyone else, hence also my questions as there are things I have yet to try.

Ok, great, you have the orange shellac, well in terms of mixing, as I have written about before, I normally start off making a mix working on the principal of say roughly 3 large handfuls of flakes and then cover with metho, and add about a 1/3 more volume, since as the flakes dissolve, they will absorb the shellac, firstly turning into a thick mixture, but as the dissolving process occurs this should end up as a solution with a consistency of say around milk or a little denser. You don't want the solution too thick as that will be useless to apply but equally so you don't want a solution so thin, that you end up having to apply say 20 coats just to get a reasonable build up on the surface. Hope that makes sense.

I always store my shellac solution in 4L plastic bottles, (which the metho comes in). I normally have a quite a few spare of these, as you will use up the metho normally before your shellac solution. Since if using a brush to apply you need to wash this out in clean metho, and similarly if using a pad, this too can be washed out in metho so you can use it again. The washings I also keep and re-use for the purpose of thinning the shellac solution as required, since the metho will evaporate over time and you will continue to end up with a slightly thicker solution than ideal. Try though always to keep hairs, dirt, lint etc out of your shellac solutions, as otherwise they will end up on the surfaces you are working on. Hardly ideal.

For someone who hasn't done much of this thing before I would imagine Neil's book should be an excellent reference, albeit that ultimately experience in working on projects completes the picture. All the best with your project and hopefully you will post some pics as you go/complete it. We all love to see pics of projects afterall Dave

*update*
Ok so I diluted timbermate & sealed the mdf. Then after waiting overnight for my shellac to dissolve gave it a few coats of the shellac. The first coat looked a bit streaky (I applied with a brush ?) but dried nicely and quickly. 2nd & 3rd coats went on with around an hour between coats. Very happy with the outcome & plan on a wax (probably Carnuba) finsih over the top. Will get a few photos on too when I can get organised.

Thanks for the advice Dave. Much appreciated.

Originally Posted by Ozziespur

*update*
Ok so I diluted timbermate & sealed the mdf. Then after waiting overnight for my shellac to dissolve gave it a few coats of the shellac. The first coat looked a bit streaky (I applied with a brush ?) but dried nicely and quickly. 2nd & 3rd coats went on with around an hour between coats. Very happy with the outcome & plan on a wax (probably Carnuba) finsih over the top. Will get a few photos on too when I can get organised.

Thanks for the advice Dave. Much appreciated.

Sounds all good, look forward to seeing the finished result. Then onwards and upwards to the next project Happy to have been of a little help. Cheers