Thread: Fish-eye is sending me nuts!

Originally Posted by wynyard

G'day.

Any help/advice/experience greatly appreciated here.

In the last few years I have refinished many dining tables - some solid timber....others veneer. Some I had previously built......others were made in the 19th Century.

From time to time I have had trouble with "fish-eye", which I discovered to be caused by silicone contamination of the timber from commercial/domestic cleaning/polishing products - even deep into the timber, somehow through intact and relatively heavy existing coatings. (Screw you Mr. Sheen!)

The pictures of my client's table here display the worst example I have ever come across.

Table was built from old growth reclaimed Eucalypt - never previously finished.

Mirotone lacquer applied over oil or possibly spirit stain C. 2006 when I built the table.

Stripped & sanded 2018 then finished with Cabots oil stain and polyurethane.

Stripped & sanded again last week.

1st coat of sprayed Mirotone sealer fish-eyed moderately.

Stripped and sanded........AGAIN!!

Wipe stained with 1:10 Miro pigment stain : Mineral Turps (should have been Miro thinners - my error)

4 sprayed coats of super-blonde de-waxed shellac......no fisheye - I do this more often these days in an effort to seal in contamination.

Shellac sanded smooth with 320g orbital after coat 2 & 4.

First topcoat of Miro 60% gloss fish-eyed but just mild enough to sand out.
(I skipped the sealer as enough shellac down in place).

Second coat of Miro 60% gloss topcoat shown in pics. It is like the surface of the moon!

Clean gun.
Clean dry surface.
Temp/humidity fine.
Brand new can of thinners/lacquer.


I'm having trouble believing that it was caused by the fact that I diluted the Mirostain with turps and it was definitely dry enough (18hrs in mildish Melb) and I have gone oil stain/shellac/Miro topcoat many times without issue. I've had Miro sealer fish-eye over shellac before.

Come to think of it, I have experienced fish-eye more often this year than before which I hope is just a coincidence as I have heard of entire workshops being contaminated with silicone.

This one is doing my head in not to mention wasted materials/time/effort!


Again, any experience with the issue or advice will be enormously appreciated.

Cheers,

Matt.

Matt,
I can only speak from an Auto finishing back ground,
But if that was a car I would say hundred percent that’s silicone.

I only suggest scrape if off again,wipe down with acetone or paint thinners,Multiple times using new cloths every time.
An make sure there is no silicone products with in a Hundred mile radius.

I know this may not help much.

Cheers Matt.

Search google for "stearated sandpaper fish eyes"


You never know, it might be the paper you are using causing it.

Hope this helps, Jeff

I don't know if this is your problem, but absolutely NEVER over-thin. Don't exceed the recommended thinning ratio and only use the recommended thinner. If it is too thin it will not have enough solids to bond properly, and once the solvents disappear - problems.

Really hate to hijack your thread but i've been keen to try spraying shellac. Any pointers? Do you use shellac retarder or just thin it?

Stearates in sandpaper. That just adds another possibility. Thanks though - something more to consider.

Just thinned light coats of super-blonde dewaxed shellac btw, hurcorh. It makes a bit of a mess of the gun though if you don't clean up properly.

For the fisheye.

Go to paint shop and get some Fisheye Eliminator to add to the polish.

If you are anywhere near an engineer that uses arc welding then silicone from the welding can carry in the air for almost 100 yards and set up on the surface to be polished.

Also a good idea not to mix brands of stain/dye and finish. If you're going to use Mirortone lacquer make sure you use a compatible Mirotone stain or dye. Water dye is better than spirit stain for almost all finishes except for water based finish.

Don't use steel wool on the surface.

Sand with wet n dry using water with a drop of regular dish detergent in it to act as a wetting agent, dry surface well with clean lint free cloth then wash down with metho. The cheap stuff of the supermarket shelf is fine for this doesn't need to be 95 or 100% Industrial metho.

For what its worth silicon carbide abrasive has nothing to do with silicone. Silicon and silicone are completely different. So highly unlikely the abrasive will have anything to do with the fisheye.

Make sure you are spraying with the correct viscosity / mix of thinner to lacquer. Looks like a pretty heavy jam coat in the pics but it may just be the light.

I doubt that just sanding back the effected section will fix it. Most likely in the surface of the wood thanks to cleaning products, MR Bloody Sheen and the likes. almost need to take a mm or so off the entire top of the table. Used to be able to get a silicon drops to wash the surface down with prior to spraying but not sure if it is available nor if you can wash it down with the Fisheye Eliminator.

40 odd years ago I had a job to refinish 400 hundred bed ends for a furniture mob in Melb. Some idiot had wiped them all down with Mr Sheen when they arrived in Aus from Tialand and they had gone really terrible looking after aa few months in storage. After lots of sanding, tests and experiments I found that spraying a base coat of shellac on them stopped the fisheye when Wattyl Estalac was finally sprayed over them.

Hope this is of a bit of hope or interest to you.

Cheers - Neil

We used to use a product called Prepsol to remove wax, grease and silicon on surfaces to be painted. Used if for years with great success. Not sure that it would draw out any silicon that has soaked into a wooden surface though?

I should probably add, I've never had an issue with abrasives causing a problem, I purchased some epoxy resin that came with a warning about stearated sandpaper (which I do use).

The issue (if there is one) is related to the use of zinc stearate as an anti-clogging coating on the abrasive which happens to be hydrophobic.
So I have no idea if it actually causes an issue, just thought it might be worth considering as it has been a topic explored in a number of forums.

Jeff

I know this is not a solution. I've been asked many times to "fix" water stains & the like on furniture for friends. My first Q is do you use or have you ever used Mr Sheen on it? If the answer is yes or even a vague maybe, I emphatically decline.

I doubt that your issue is sand paper related - unless - it was only used on the affected area and not other areas of the surface. "Simple deduction Mr Watson."

Its difficult but the only way to track back to the source of the contamination is to work out what makes that spot different & difficult -

• what has been on it? - contaminated rags, dust from another project, a box, cardboard.....
• were other areas of the surface covered, but not it? overspray, windblown contaminants, etc
• any products used only on that area? a filler, epoxy, a sandpaper, even say a ROS that may have been used on another project ....

The next problem is that it is difficult to find out exactly what is in popular furniture care products with SDS statements like "Other non hazardous ingredients, secret to 100%, not set, not set."

That's all under our control for new projects, but when its refinishing a project that has been in use for a long time, its a different proposition. Being centre of the table - what has been used as a centerpiece on the table? A silicone backed mat, a leaky "oil lamp," salt lamp, essential oil diffuser - all sorts of weird and wonderful things out there.

ps an after thought "old growth reclaimed Eucalypt - never previously finished" reclaimed from what exactly? Any possibility that it has been preservative treated - bridge timbers?

Originally Posted by Mobyturns

ps an after thought "old growth reclaimed Eucalypt - never previously finished" reclaimed from what exactly? Any possibility that it has been preservative treated - bridge timbers?

Shearing shed or wool store. Could be full of lanolin. Old bench top or flooring. Engineering workshop, could be full of silicone, etc

Originally Posted by Mobyturns

I've been asked many times to "fix" water stains & the like on furniture for friends.

For watermarks etc it is sometimes worth spending a few dollars on a bottle of u-Beaut Polish Reviver it can remove, repair, restore marking from water, heat, alcohol, Mr 'Bloody' Sheen, other proprietary cleaners and waxes. It can also hide (to a certain extent) light surface scratches. It cannot remove scratches only blend them in so as they are not as obvious.

Will also remove smoke and soot damage and will protect the surface from further water, heat and alcohol damage. For under $20 it could save lots of gnashing of teeth, time and work or around a $1,000+ restoration if someone does it for you.

There is no silicone or any other adverse chemicals in the Reviver. It is safe to use on all finished surfaces, French polish, lacquer, poly, etc. Not ideal for wax only surface as will soften the wax making a bit of a muddy mess of the wax if you don't do the Mr Miyagi - Karate Kid thing.... Wax on Wax off. Don't even bother on oiled surfaces. (never tried on oiled surface so not sure what would happen but Yeah-Nar! Wouldn't recommend it.)

Hope this is of some help or interest.

Apologies for the blatant advert.

Please don't report me. I can't ban myself neither can anyone else.

Thanks.

The top was made from reclaimed Messmate floor joists - totally nude, plus heavily thicknessed pre construction. No fish-eye issues when first finished 15 years ago (different workshop) nor when refinished a few years ago (same workshop). Client insists no bad stuff has ever been used on it but it would only take one "polish" to do it.

SIAFLEX discs contain stearates above 120G so that's as fine as it's getting this time. It's so hard that's all it needs.

Acetone wipe before coating tomorrow.