Thread: Shellac Over Pummice & Wax???

Originally Posted by EagerBeaver71

The only thing I have found that shellac definitely doesn't have an issue with is turps based sanding sealer, I remember you telling me that ages ago.

Turps based shellac and Wattyl 7008 two pack are good.

Also it depends on how much shellac your putting on top. I know its fine with Turps SS. As much as you want.
Ive FP over Wattyl 7008 and it was a very thin FP finish. It was a great way to do my aged Kitchen and laundry bench tops that were made in solid US cherry and aged. Cutting back the 7008 flat was real hard work though to take the thin FP. It looked and lasted really well though for many years and I only revived it once . Giving it another thin rubber when we sold the house.

Sam. I watched it but skipped through quickly to the interesting bits. What a difference from the first link in this thread.
Its a very good excellent demo.
I didn't see his sanding at the beginning. Ill go back and see what he did there.

A couple of things I noticed.
He was a bit shaky colouring out that repair he created and all over the place at first with colour choices but got it done in the end. That had me wondering about him at that stage that's all.

The more I watched from that point the more I liked it.

The main thing I could see with his method of doing this that differed from what I do was the bodying.
I thought he was spending to much time basically going up and down with the grain and not getting into serious figure 8s and circles across the grain after he had some shellac down and soft. He did mention that it could be done more like that though I think. He wasn't in much of a rush though was he? Sort of having a jolly time of it. .
I like to get stuck into the bodying as I said before in this thread. And then cut it back after its dry. Next day usually. Or if Ive bodied first thing Ill give it a cut back and second go late in the day . Cutting it back removes any pimples , dust spots and lowers the height of the top of the job while the still low open grain is rising.
You have to be careful obviously not to go through your job , stain or any colour . If you do you have to touch it up with colour before proceeding. I'm good at that and used to it though. Its at its most likely to happen if your not careful on the first cut back. The first one should be fast and quick. There is not enough there yet for a hard cut back. Used 400 grit that is worn can be better than new paper. Later body's and its not so bad.

Also his oil use and spiriting off at the end didn't make sense compared to what I do. He was sort of spiriting off oil that he had used much earlier on I thought? Or maybe I missed something? I use very thin shellac when getting towards the end of finishing and oil is used at the same time. Linseed is what Ive always stuck with. And not much of it. Its obvious that its on the job and stands out at first. And as I go on and use almost 100 % metho it gets taken off. Sometimes when its looking good a fresh clean dry rag can take some of it off as well.
My way compared to this is just minor differences .
But I do figure 8s and circles a lot more than him not just in the bodying but right through all the sessions . Right to the end of the job when finishing with oil. Good old Jack stressed that to me years ago actually.

His holding up the Mahogany at the end showed the job off really well.

That was good.

Rob.

Originally Posted by EagerBeaver71

Quick question: can you apply shellac over an Acrylic clear coat?.

Yes shellac will stick to almost anything. But if you mean can you FP over it, then you have to ask questions about the prep. Was the grain filled before the acrylic finish? Is the finish free of marks in it like brush marks etc. If no to those then you have to ask can you sand and grain fill with the acrylic there. Maybe you can. My old book which predates acrylic I think suggests you should go back to raw wood if the surface is varnished due to sanding leaving white marks on the old varnish. It says spirit varnishes may be ok to FP over. It's probably a suck and see situation but if it fails down the track was it worth the risk?

Originally Posted by mic-d

Yes shellac will stick to almost anything. But if you mean can you FP over it, then you have to ask questions about the prep. Was the grain filled before the acrylic finish? Is the finish free of marks in it like brush marks etc. If no to those then you have to ask can you sand and grain fill with the acrylic there. Maybe you can. My old book which predates acrylic I think suggests you should go back to raw wood if the surface is varnished due to sanding leaving white marks on the old varnish. It says spirit varnishes may be ok to FP over. It's probably a suck and see situation but if it fails down the track was it worth the risk?

I was thinking more along the lines of using the Acrylic as seal coat, to seal alcohol based dye stain.

Originally Posted by auscab

Turps based shellac and Wattyl 7008 two pack are good.

Also it depends on how much shellac your putting on top. I know its fine with Turps SS. As much as you want.
Ive FP over Wattyl 7008 and it was a very thin FP finish. It was a great way to do my aged Kitchen and laundry bench tops that were made in solid US cherry and aged. Cutting back the 7008 flat was real hard work though to take the thin FP. It looked and lasted really well though for many years and I only revived it once . Giving it another thin rubber when we sold the house.

Hmmm... this has got me wondering if I may not have allowed the polyurethane long enough to cure before applying shellac over it as the Wattyl 7008 two pack is also a polyurethane... Did you get any cracking?.

Originally Posted by EagerBeaver71

Here's someone I imagine knows what he's doing:

How To French Polish - Part 1 of 3 - YouTube

For anyone starting out, these 3 videos have enough knowledge to get you on your way

Originally Posted by auscab

Sorry A bit of a rave that wasn't asked for.

Hi Rob,

Thanks for your reply, I was interested because you mentioned dipping your rubber directly into the shellac when bodying up, which I have never heard of and wondered how that came about as your method of charging the rubber, like in the 3 videos by Gilboy's, I was taught the importance of making a good rubber and to unwrap the rubber and recharge it once it had no more shellac to squeeze out, for me this gives you a greater amount of usable shellac within the rubber and allows you to control the flow of shellac when bodying up for a greater period of time.

So no I didn't find your reply a bit of a rave or even a rant, but more an interesting story of how you learnt your craft, wood finishing for me is where you bring the piece to life, I don't really like the high gloss finishes which French Polishing can produce and would rather have a satin finish.

Cheers Nigel

Just to add a bit to the grain filling part of the conversation, for a while back in the UK around the 1980/90's Limed Oak and Ash became popular and interior designers would specify this finish, I did a conference room job back in 1987 at Brocket Hall, it had raised and fielded Limed Oak panels and a Egg & Dart with Dentil plaster cornice which was painted to look like Limed Oak.

Here are some not so good quality pictures of the job with a pic of me standing next to what was supposed to be a secret door, upstairs in Brocket Hall was a Library, which had a much better secret door, but this Library was made by Chippendale, so what would you expect, another point of interest is that it's quite rare to see Chippendale built in Furniture, so here's a link Elegant Dinner Space - Library - Prestigious Venues

brocket hall 1.jpg brocket hall 2.jpg brocket hall 4.jpg
brocket hall 5.jpg brocket hall me next to secret door.jpg

And here's a link to the Brocket Hall website and if you scroll down you can see some 37 years later the Limed Oak is still looking good.

Brocket Hall Estate - Brocket Hall

Originally Posted by Camelot

Hi Rob,

Thanks for your reply, I was interested because you mentioned dipping your rubber directly into the shellac when bodying up, which I have never heard of and wondered how that came about as your method of charging the rubber

Nigel. Thanks for the interest.
The direct dip method was how every pro polisher Ive met did it.
Anyone seen playing around unwrapping a rubber and using a bottle on their trial period of getting a job at GB antiques as a polisher would have been looked at more closely and may not have got the job I believe.
I saw guys who believed applying oil to the rubber was one way rather than applying it to the work. But not shellac. Ive only seen that on the internet.

When in full flight body mode You need rubber re charging every minute or two. Sometimes less. Like very 30 seconds. Depending on the rubber and the job that is. I cant see how loading it with a bottle could be better. My rubber is sometimes fully dunked in and comes out full and is then squeezed, Sometimes its just put in a few mm and then squeezed.

This was the GB team back in 1980. I'm the first green dot cabinet maker on the left.
Red dot was the polishers. Third and fourth red dot was the older polishers Bob and Jack.
Blue was the German Upholsterer Egon. These older guys were 2nd WW war time fellas.
Egon was a soldier for Germany. The other two red dot cabinet makers were Italian and Spanish.
It was an interesting mix of people to be amongst. Peaceful most of the time .
Orange dots is GB on right and JB on left Dads brother.
The other three guys are neighbors from two other antique shops. John Allen far right was a cabinet maker and GB was as well.
img157a.jpg

So all the polishers dipped the rubber and washed their hands at the end of the day and every cabinet maker had all his fingers.


Rob.

The bottles are only convenient when you're only doing small jobs like boxes and bedsides since the storage bottle is also the dispenser and it's tidy.

Ok Guys I have some very noteworthy information on Feast Watson. I had a phone call today from the technical department in regard to applying Shellac (in all its forms) over their oil based polyurethane Varnish.

My question was as follows:

Could you please tell me if I can apply Shellac over your Polyurethane Varnish (Gloss). In Detail:

I have stained a piece of American Oak using Feast Watson Prooftint (Walnut). I have then applied a single brush coat of Feast Watson Varnish (gloss) over the stain to seal it

In a pretty lengthy phone conversation I was told that this question has been raised quite few times over the years and according to their R&D development chemist you can french polish over their polyurethane without issues of sticking, crazing or peeling over time. They said you should give the poly a few days to gas off/cure depending on the thickness of the coat or coats. Then you should sand back the poly to a dull finish.

As mentioned I had a problem with crazing when I tried this however a few things I found out since, the can of poly I used wasn't feast watson (it was a small amount left over from years ago!. Secondly I only left it to dry for 4 hours and lastly I didn't sand it back to a dull sheen. I clearly need to learn to have more patience with these things!.

So I'm doing it again following the advice.

If this works I'll be doing my coffee table in Shellac without doubt!.