Thread: using hard, shellac

Originally Posted by Heartstrings

G`day to my neighbors in Australia, I just joined this forum because I recently picked up a bottle of U-Beaut hard shellac and thought I`d go directly to the source for how to best apply it. I build electric guitars and love the look shellac gives the wood, but durability has kept me from using it as a complete finish. Starting with some scrap I applied 4 coats of the U-Beaut, diluted 1part shellac to 1part spirits, sanded with 800 grit paper to remove the ridges and then began french polishing with the same mixture with a couple drops of spirits and one of olive oil. I was wondering if the use of the olive oil in any way inhibits the cross linking of the U-Beaut or can cause any other problems. I hope it doesn`t because the shine and the smoothness after just 1 session is amazing. I applied 4 coats in 1 session. Any advice from anyone that`s familiar with U-Beaut`s application would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Michael Williams

You should not have any problems, it is standard practice to use olive oil or some other oils that are suitable. You might want to order the publication "A Polishers Handbook" by Neil Ellis who makes u-Beaut's products and teaches french polishing.

SB

Thanks for the reply Wood Planner, I thought it should be okay to use the olive oil but wanted to make sure before using on a guitar. The hard shellac behaves differently than the regular shellac I`m used to, it`s a lot easier to get a smooth finish with it. I plan to pick up a copy of that book but in the mean time I thought you folks in Australia who are familiar with the product could get me started on the right track. Thanks again!

Sorry about the late reply. I'm in Houston right now and haven't been on the forums for any answers etc for a month.

I wouldn't use olive oil. Oil of preference is mineral oil (paraffin oil for Aussies). This is the second time I've heard of olive oil being used in the US weather this is common practice or not I'm not too sure but I wouldn't use it myself.

Cheers - Neil

Originally Posted by ubeaut

Sorry about the late reply. I'm in Houston right now and haven't been on the forums for any answers etc for a month.

I wouldn't use olive oil. Oil of preference is mineral oil (paraffin oil for Aussies). This is the second time I've heard of olive oil being used in the US weather this is common practice or not I'm not too sure but I wouldn't use it myself.

Cheers - Neil

Nice of you to respond, hope that`s Houston, Texas and your setting up a factory there. Great product your hard shellac, I only started trying to master the skill of french polishing about a year ago and found from surfing the net that there are as many ways to do it as there are french polishers. Found a thread where you recomended the paraffin and have switched to it and found it much better. Thanks again Mike

Thought I'd ask for some advice in this thread instead of starting another.

I'm applying my hard shellac via a pad. Should I be attempting to get each coat perfectly smooth? Or should I just wipe it on and leave it with the "cloudy' finish and then very lightly rub back between applications?

I was trying to get perfect coats but was ending up pulling my hair out as the more I try to wipe it, the tackier it gets and harder to smooth. I am using parrafin oil but don't want to apply too much oil as it makes it difficult to see when applying new coats. I also used shellite to wipe off the excess oil but the shellite seems to take all the shine from the surface and gives a very dry dull finish.

Regards,
Shane.

I've had good results with a quality brush - but some thinning with meths to begin with and in hot weather is advisable.

Good brush: artists mop (exxy) or Grammercy brush from US Tools for working with wood (on the web) - recommended by Neil

Haven't found a cloudy finish. Sure the wood is fully dry?

PS don't use Shellite. It's just petrol.

The wood is definately dry. It's actually several different bandsaw boxes using different timber and the same effect is happening on all of them.

The "cloudy" finish I mentioned was referring to the term they used from French Polish Bodying 10 .

"Another positive indicator of a properly loaded muneca is the famous “cloud” that is left behind the muneca as it lays on the shellac. This cloud is much like the cloud that your windshield wipers leave when there is oil on the windshield. It appears and disappears as the wipers work back and forth."

Okay, so I'll stop using the shellite, but from reading and watching videos etc on french polishing they mention using shellite to rid the surface of the oil as shellite doesn't affect shellac.

But I guess that can be the problem with the internet. There is so much information out there from all these so called expert websites yet a lot of info contradicts each other.

Some experts say that you have to have a really wet amount of shellac when applying and others say that only a very small amount is used otherwise it pulls the existing shellac from the wood.

I had initially brushed the first two coats of hard shellac using a good quality artists mop/brush. But being inexperienced with brushing the shellac, I was ending up with too many high ridges that ended up with more sanding. So I reverted back to using the pad, which reduced the amount of ridges.

But thanks for replying, I may end up attempting to brush the hard shellac on my next box. What ratio of metho to hard shellac do you suggest for brushing?

Shane.

Yes, thinning should help.

With the first coat on my bowls it was at least 50% thinned and later coats 50:50.

PS as u'd know the task is to progressivly build up and cut back layers. Neil could correct me but i'm not sure that hard shellac is the easiest for this. maybe just use blond shellac to body up and then hard for the last coat or two

I started this thread and was began finishing a guitar by french polishing it, I`ve been trying to master this art for about a year and like you have been confused by all the imformation on the net. In my own case I found less shellac in the rubber to be better. I also found that by starting with 4 coats of 1lb cut, 4hrs apart no oil, with just a folded up piece of t-shirt material, trying not to overlap and not going back over to touch up a missed spot really helps. It leaves some small ridges but after letting it cure for two days I knock them off with some 3M 800 grit paper and then start french polishing with the parafin oil. I found that trying to polish before the initial coats cure a bit I end up getting the sticky mess your describing. I dip my folded squares right into the shellac for those initial coats and sqeeze the excess out on the side of the jar because if you lay a coat on too thick it won`t harden enough in 4hrs to lay another on. Seems that patience is the key, if it starts getting sticky and no cloud appears, it could be your applying to much too soon. I`ve had to switch to spraying because I started to develope a horrible pain in my shoulder from all the rubbing and found that less is better with spraying too. Used 1part hard shellac to 4parts alcohol and spray it so thin I can see it flash off as I`m spraying, I go over the guitar 4 times each spraying session, with each session 4hrs apart. Hope that helps Mike

Originally Posted by Heartstrings

I started this thread and was began finishing a guitar by french polishing it, I`ve been trying to master this art for about a year and like you have been confused by all the imformation on the net. In my own case I found less shellac in the rubber to be better. I also found that by starting with 4 coats of 1lb cut, 4hrs apart no oil, with just a folded up piece of t-shirt material, trying not to overlap and not going back over to touch up a missed spot really helps. It leaves some small ridges but after letting it cure for two days I knock them off with some 3M 800 grit paper and then start french polishing with the parafin oil. I found that trying to polish before the initial coats cure a bit I end up getting the sticky mess your describing. I dip my folded squares right into the shellac for those initial coats and sqeeze the excess out on the side of the jar because if you lay a coat on too thick it won`t harden enough in 4hrs to lay another on. Seems that patience is the key, if it starts getting sticky and no cloud appears, it could be your applying to much too soon. I`ve had to switch to spraying because I started to develope a horrible pain in my shoulder from all the rubbing and found that less is better with spraying too. Used 1part hard shellac to 4parts alcohol and spray it so thin I can see it flash off as I`m spraying, I go over the guitar 4 times each spraying session, with each session 4hrs apart. Hope that helps Mike

Thanks, it made me think that maybe I'm trying to apply my coats too soon. I may be giving enough time for it to be touch dry but when applying the next coat, could it be dissolving the thin top dry layer and exposing the still wet underneath?

I've currently got the weather on my side, being 35c (95 fahrenheit) in the shed and only 40% humidity. I was reapplying the coats after half an hour. What sort of temperature are you experiencing when applying your shellac? This was using a pad. I did end up going back to using the brush for the final coat of the day. I was a bit more patient using the brush this time and I think I minimised the amount of ridges and overlap.



Shane.

I live in Ohio, USA and it`s been in the 20`s, I can`t get my shop more than 60 degree`s when it`s this cold. I used some surgical gauze for the filler in my rubber as recommended by a gentleman on this forum and it worked really well, wrapped it in t-shirt material to form a ball and using 1lb cut again loaded it with 10 or 12 drops and one drop of parafin oil. When the vapor cloud disapears I reload it with about 6 drops till I`ve covered 1 side of the guitar, then I go to another side until I`ve covered the entire piece. I repeat it till I`ve gone over it a total of 4 times in a session and usually do just 3 sessions a day 4 hrs apart, just take the guitar in the house when done. If you`ve applied some with a brush it probably wouldn`t hurt to set it aside for 4 days to harden before french polishing it. Shellac is a finish that doesn`t seem to like being rushed but the look it gives to the wood is unlike any other finish I`ve tried.

Is the advice from this youtube video a good method to rub out the shellac?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPtGu5scc7A&feature=related"]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]

A confusing part is at the start where he mentions using mineral spirits to thin out the mineral oil and also using the mineral spirits straight on the wood. I know mineral oil is what we call parrafin oil but am I right to assume mineral spirits is mineral turpentine?

And here is his first video of how to brush on the shellac.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ9M-B79jzs&feature=related"]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]

Shane.

Originally Posted by Babylon5

Is the advice from this youtube video a good method to rub out the shellac?

YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.

A confusing part is at the start where he mentions using mineral spirits to thin out the mineral oil and also using the mineral spirits straight on the wood. I know mineral oil is what we call parrafin oil but am I right to assume mineral spirits is mineral turpentine?

And here is his first video of how to brush on the shellac.
YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.

Shane.

Well I guess it works for him but I tried mineral spirits once to wet sand regular shellac, not hard shellac, and it softened it. I`ve sanded the hard shellac with parafin oil with no problems but it was recommended to me by a member of this forum not to do any polishing till the hard shellac fully crosslinks, 3 weeks. I`ve only been a member of this forum a short time and have found and been given more useful imformation than any I`d found during the last year on the net. They really know their shellac in Australia. I typed in shellac in the search box and found a lot of useful threads. Mike

Originally Posted by Heartstrings

Well I guess it works for him but I tried mineral spirits once to wet sand regular shellac, not hard shellac, and it softened it. I`ve sanded the hard shellac with parafin oil with no problems but it was recommended to me by a member of this forum not to do any polishing till the hard shellac fully crosslinks, 3 weeks. I`ve only been a member of this forum a short time and have found and been given more useful imformation than any I`d found during the last year on the net. They really know their shellac in Australia. I typed in shellac in the search box and found a lot of useful threads. Mike

I've probably been looking at the hard shellac in the wrong way. Maybe the method I should be doing is brushing on the main coats to build up the shellac thickness on the boxes. Then to leave it till crosslinked/hardened and instead of trying to get a polish using sandpaper etc and wax, should I be french polishing with a pad/rubber to achieve a gloss finish. Does this sound about right?

Is the "3 weeks" for crosslinking needed when the daytime temperature is constantly above 30c? Or is the 3 weeks a fairly conservative time frame taking into account winter temperatures of places such as victoria and tasmania?

Will a french polish/hard shellac finish stay glossy or will it eventually dull over time like wax? I'm wanting to reproduce a shiny finish similar to lacquer but don't want to use a wax finish to achieve the gloss level.

Shane.