Thread: $10 million for a violin for Australian orchestra

Waldo, I saw the same program Im sure. Karl Hass did a program comparing various violins playing the Saint Saens about 15 years ago. There was a marked difference between each instrument and he threw in a couple of others. In the end they all sounded different and all sounded great. Personally I think the player has more to do with the tone,

Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56

Waldo, I saw the same program Im sure. Karl Hass did a program comparing various violins playing the Saint Saens about 15 years ago. There was a marked difference between each instrument and he threw in a couple of others. In the end they all sounded different and all sounded great. Personally I think the player has more to do with the tone,

That's the thing about any such test, replicating exactly each time, you're probably right.

Oi reckon it's the same as someone outside of woodwork saying "why would someone pay $10K for an Italian/German tablesaw - the H&F $700 still cuts wood in the same way and the same accuracy" (if you're careful!). There is a difference, but you probably need to be in the know, to know. Blind tests are going to be useless if the people you choose have no musical knowledge, no ear for music, and have never played themselves at the highest calibre. In an unrelated but me-trying-to-have-an-analogue way, does the person looking at your finished woodwork know you used handtools from Bunnings or a $10K docking saw? No, but the artisan does. Does the average punter listening to the music hear the difference? No, but the top musician does. Does the professional at the top of their game understand the difference? Too right. Does it matter that they're willing to pay squillions on it? No, unless it's taxpayers money AND it can't be justified (with all that entails ).



Rob

Originally Posted by mcarthur

No, unless it's taxpayers money AND it can't be justified (with all that entails ).

Rob

I believe it was a gift,

Originally Posted by mcarthur

Does the average punter listening to the music hear the difference? No, but the top musician does. Does the professional at the top of their game understand the difference? Too right.

Spot on mcarthur

You have hit the nail on the head there!

Originally Posted by Buncha

You have hit the nail on the head there!

Using a Big Green hammer - even I can tell that's shoddy

When you think about it a violin has to do so much more work than a guitar.
We take our guitars and mike them up or plug them in amps and then mike the amps up and then we put them through a mixer and amplify them again through PAs.
A 1st violin or a soloist has to reach the back of an auditorium on its own legs without mixers or PAs and I guess its the more educated punters in the back rows who would be getting the benefit of a well made violin over it's less well bred brethren. I can imagine the difference to the toffs in the front row would be purely status and image but the scope for the good to shine over the mediocre would surely be greater for a working concert violinist than someone doing a blind test in a room.

Originally Posted by mcarthur

Oi reckon it's the same as someone outside of woodwork saying "why would someone pay $10K for an Italian/German tablesaw - the H&F $700 still cuts wood in the same way and the same accuracy" (if you're careful!). There is a difference, but you probably need to be in the know, to know. Blind tests are going to be useless if the people you choose have no musical knowledge, no ear for music, and have never played themselves at the highest calibre. In an unrelated but me-trying-to-have-an-analogue way, does the person looking at your finished woodwork know you used handtools from Bunnings or a $10K docking saw? No, but the artisan does. Does the average punter listening to the music hear the difference? No, but the top musician does. Does the professional at the top of their game understand the difference? Too right. Does it matter that they're willing to pay squillions on it? No, unless it's taxpayers money AND it can't be justified (with all that entails ).

Rob

Rob

One of the ABC current affairs efforts (I think it was Ockhams Razor) has a podcast about this or a similar violin gifted to another Aussie orchester.

the "expert" conclusion was that there is NO difference in performance between a Stradi or Tongelli and a modern top notch violin, but the Stradi / Tongelli was considered so much nicer to play that the musio put more effort into the playing.

Derek, provided a woodworking analogy not so long ago, comparing his Veritas BU smoother and BU Marcou "Gentleman's" smoother.
He has not as yet been able to discern a difference in performance between the two planes (which may be because he hasn't found a bit of wood that defeats the Veritas) but Derek reports that the Marcou is so much nicer to pick up and "take a shaving or two before going off to bed". (Derek, any misquoting here is not deliberate)



ian

Zenwood. The violin in question would be a rare instrument made by a renowned and long dead luthier it’s not the instrument itself that is worth 10 million but the fact that it’s rare. And yes there are acoustic differences age of timbers would be a factor but also the care in making the instrument also the timber itself the denser the timber the better tones it can produce such as timbers that grow slowly in colder climates. Also the varnishes they are coated with are important. The wrong varnish can inhibit the vibration of the timber destroying the tone. There are many more things that affect the quality of the instrument. There has never been a perfect instrument but some are more perfect than others. Hope this helps

I have heard this violin played about 8 times from a distance of 10m and it sounds good to me!

There are at least 5 instruments currently being used by ACO players made in the 1700's, and one other that dates late 1700's or early 1800's.
Every time the players walk out onstage in front of me, I think how lucky I am to be able to see and hear those 250 odd yo instruments in use and muse over the history they collectively contain.

Its always a pleasure X

The second hour of this program http://www.abc.net.au/rn/musicshow/s...08/2405757.htm is an extensive interview with Richard Tognetti, the person who plays the instrument, very interesting,

Originally Posted by kiwigeo

Whats the big deal.....the instrument was donated to the orchestra so its not costing the tax payer or the orchestra anything and its going to a good home where its going to be a source of joy for both those playing and listening to the instrument...it's a win win deal IMO.

Some aimless ramblings on the subject:

1. The Strads and other Cremone instruments were made by master luthiers who devoted their whole lives to making violins. These instruments are extremely well made and there aren't alot of them around.
2. The wood used in these instruments is generally of much better quality than the stuff available to luthiers today. Over time top quality tonewoods have largely been milled out. To buy tonewood of equivalent quality today costs big bucks (one reason I recently paid for a Brazillian Rosewood guitar back and side set).
3. Well made instruments made from top quality tonewoods do improve with age. This has been proven in endless scientific tests.
4. The Mona Lisa is worth alot more than the cost of materials and time taken to paint it but people dont balk when told the dollar value of the painting. A Strad is no different from LDV's famous painting...just think of a Strad as the Mona Lisa of the violin world.
5. How many people posting here moan about paying more than a dollar a litre for petrol but happily pay twice that for a bottle of water? People generally are horribly inconsistent when determining the monetary value of an item.

Cheers Martin

Hi Martin
Just a bit of argument on point 3. I went to a Greg Smallman lecture some years ago and he pointed out that his guitars "wear out" and need to be replaced. Now you could argue differently but he seems to be known as the best builder in Australia or at least one of the best classical guitar makers in the world, he takes a totally different approach and his strut system is no Torres that is for sure. John Williams buys Smallman Guitars, that has to be a bit of a feather in the Smallman cap. One other point is that who is alive today that could listen to those violin 200 years ago and compare, maybe they were even better then, who knows, I don't.
Jim

Toejam,

Im no instrument repairer but I believe the tonebar (bassbar?) in Violin family instruments need to be replaced as they "wear out" in time. My understanding is that the highly regarded Italian instruments used nowadays have had this procedure a number of times. See http://www.zaretandsonsviolins.com/goodsounding.html 8th paragraph Maybe Mathew can add a comment here.

Maybe a Smallman could be rebraced?

I just think that no matter what was paid for an instrument, it is the sound that is produced by that instrument, in the hands of a skilled musician, that makes the thing of any value. This particular violin, like any instrument of quality, will have its particular traits that vary from day to day. The individual musician will get to know and feel the response of the instrument and together with the skilled artist on any particular day may have a magical moment or two when the chiils run down your back and the hairs on your neck stand on end. Those magical moments are lost on some people but to those in the know it can simply take your breath away. I for one look forward to being in the concert hall, or rehearsal room, when those magic moments happen.

I've been on the concert platform with many musicians far more talented than myself from time to time. Every now and then someone will play something and make a sound that takes your breath away. When it all comes together it is a wonderous thing. 10K or 10Mil if it is magic....it is magic.
Kevin