Thread: 7 Course Renaissance Lute

Hello Martin, I have finished lesson two on the baroque lute mould. I noticed you said you completely built a new mould becuase you weren't satisfied with mould one. My first effort is ok but some of the cross pieces don't quite fit. David Van Edwards knows this happens always and suggests re-doing a few. I am inclined to start on another mould completely especially now I have it down to a fine art. Is this what prompted you to do likewise? What do you think? Cheers, Robert

G'Day Robert, Check out Australian and New Zealand Luthier Forum.
Martin is also showing his build on that forum with more photos than is on this forum, Its good to go between both forums.
Regards Bob

Originally Posted by zendozendo

Hello Martin, I have finished lesson two on the baroque lute mould. I noticed you said you completely built a new mould becuase you weren't satisfied with mould one. My first effort is ok but some of the cross pieces don't quite fit. David Van Edwards knows this happens always and suggests re-doing a few. I am inclined to start on another mould completely especially now I have it down to a fine art. Is this what prompted you to do likewise? What do you think? Cheers, Robert

Hi Robert,

On my first mold I shaped the ribs using a disc sanding machine and the facets on the ribs werent perfect. On the second attempt I photocopied the rib plans and stuck them onto the MDF before cutting them out and then hand shaping with a plane and sanding sticks. The result was more accurate.

If the mold isnt accurate then youre going to have problems making the lute ribs fit together properly.

For the templates for cutting the lute ribs I also photocopied the plan and stuck the photocopies onto 3mm MDF before cutting out.

Cheers Martin

Originally Posted by kiwigeo

Hi Robert,

On my first mold I shaped the ribs using a disc sanding machine and the facets on the ribs werent perfect. On the second attempt I photocopied the rib plans and stuck them onto the MDF before cutting them out and then hand shaping with a plane and sanding sticks. The result was more accurate.

If the mold isnt accurate then youre going to have problems making the lute ribs fit together properly.

For the templates for cutting the lute ribs I also photocopied the plan and stuck the photocopies onto 3mm MDF before cutting out.

Cheers Martin

Thanks Martin, That sounds quite useful so I'll give it a go. How did you photocopy such large plans, especially the ribs? Cheers, Robert

Best way is to take the plans to a copying firm and get full size copies made. I made do with an A3 copier and made copies of half a rib per copy and stuck them together. I was,lucky as the copier I used was fairly accurate and didnt change size of templates. if youre going to do copying then id make sure you copy ALL your plans on the same machine....preferably on the same day.

Right now Ive run into a slight problem with rib number 3. The template doesnt fit well around the butt of the mold. Im currently making up another template. Its important once youve finished your mold to check the templates fit the mold...some will need a bit of modification. This is mentioned in van Andrews tutorials.

Originally Posted by woodturner777

G'Day Robert, Check out Australian and New Zealand Luthier Forum.
Martin is also showing his build on that forum with more photos than is on this forum, Its good to go between both forums.
Regards Bob

Thanks for the tip Bob. I've joined that forum as well and it looks good. It a bit challenging though for one who plays renaissance and baroque lutes to be trying my hand at making one. The renaissance lute I played was the one I made and the baroque (now gone) I bought years ago from Migma in the old East Germany. They still have a web site I believe and make all kinds of instruments. I will pick up your billet tomorrow and give you an opinion. Robert

Hi Robert,

Yesterday was disaster with rib no 3...the thing wouldnt fit tightly against rib 1 no matter how much I trimmed and shaped the thing. I gave up and got a good nights sleep and then started back on it today after a long bike ride.

I re-read Van Andrew's tutorial and noted his comments on recreating gaps seen on the mold on the planing board. I tried this approach and got a better fit..not perfect but I decided Id spent enough time on the problem and wasnt looking for perfection. The lesson learnt was to do as van Andrew suggests and make up and fit two adjacent ribs at a time.....the one youre about to glue up and the next one as well.

Cheers Martin

Five ribs glued in...6 to go. Having to watch a tendancy for ribs to "flare" out from the mold around the a**e end of same. The Tutorial instructs to use Sellotape for holding ribs on during glue up but Im finding the Aussie Sellotape isnt worth a **** and Stewmac binding tape does a much better job.

Originally Posted by kiwigeo

Hi Robert,

Yesterday was disaster with rib no 3...the thing wouldnt fit tightly against rib 1 no matter how much I trimmed and shaped the thing. I gave up and got a good nights sleep and then started back on it today after a long bike ride.

I re-read Van Andrew's tutorial and noted his comments on recreating gaps seen on the mold on the planing board. I tried this approach and got a better fit..not perfect but I decided Id spent enough time on the problem and wasnt looking for perfection. The lesson learnt was to do as van Andrew suggests and make up and fit two adjacent ribs at a time.....the one youre about to glue up and the next one as well.

Cheers Martin

I had some thoughts while taking a shower. The Lute I made forty years ago was constructed with a sense of adventure and risk taking, perhaps because I was in my "out-there" early twenties. I has no plans to refer to and picked up what I could. The mould was made of solid chipboard with rough marks for where ribs would sit. I fitted each rib as I went on both sides of the centre and adjusted the last two on either side (the same width) at the soundboard to make up for previous rib errors.

It worked, and from memory, there were few problems and in the end it was the sound that mattered. I played that Lute in a few concerts in Melbourne. I wish I knew where the instrument was - if anyone knows tell me about it

So I now approach my early stages of making the mould with an openness to discovery and a reminder that no original moulds for Lutes exist so we cannot exactly know how they were constructed and how much improvisation existed. The lute repertoire was enormous especially in the renaissance (mostly anon) so Lutes must have been quite common and I'm sure many were not perfect.

I agree Robert,

Im sure you are familiar with Lundberg's excellent book "Historical Lute Making". For me there were a couple of take out points, the first was "close enuff" ie there is no gain after a point in chasing perfection and second was that there are no straight lines except for the strings!

I think also that we have long been influenced by factory made instruments and dont have a real feel for hand made instruments until we start making them. But the workmanship I have seen in survivng instruments is usually superb. Guess thats what happens when you do it for a living.

Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56

I agree Robert,

Im sure you are familiar with Lundberg's excellent book "Historical Lute Making". For me there were a couple of take out points, the first was "close enuff" ie there is no gain after a point in chasing perfection and second was that there are no straight lines except for the strings!

I think also that we have long been influenced by factory made instruments and dont have a real feel for hand made instruments until we start making them. But the workmanship I have seen in survivng instruments is usually superb. Guess thats what happens when you do it for a living.

Thank-you. I'm not familiar with the book at all but I may search for it. Actually the only musical instrument I have ever made was that Lute 40 years ago. I made it then because I couldn't afford to buy one. To me it is about the sound it makes, after all it is mostly for playing music, but also must look asthetically pleasing.

Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56

I agree Robert,

Im sure you are familiar with Lundberg's excellent book "Historical Lute Making". For me there were a couple of take out points, the first was "close enuff" ie there is no gain after a point in chasing perfection and second was that there are no straight lines except for the strings!

I think also that we have long been influenced by factory made instruments and dont have a real feel for hand made instruments until we start making them. But the workmanship I have seen in survivng instruments is usually superb. Guess thats what happens when you do it for a living.

I did find the book and for a good price from Stewart Mac... There were some very expensive used ones but of course I avoided them. I agree with you about the superb workmanship but blemishes are not uncommon in brilliant work. There is a difference, and perfection is rarely an art form. In hand knotted Persian rugs I understand there is always a blemish (sometimes deliberate because only Allah is perfect - it is said in Islam I believe).

and in Zen influenced art as well.

Originally Posted by kiwigeo

Not a whole lot of progress on the lute. Ive have had a cold for the last week and yesterday there was a trip to the dentist for a root canal which left me in no mood for lute building. Anyway since last post Ive made a second mold (left front in photo)..I wasnt happy with accuracy of dimensions of first attempt (in the background in photo). Ive also started working the Indian Rosewood side stock down to circa 0.065" in preparation for making up the rib strips. This is a laborious task with the LN No 4 plane being useable on some stock but many of the side sections requiring working down using a scraper plane. The IRW is opp grade from Allied Lutherie and the stuff Im working on here has some lovely orange colours in it....really good value tonewood this stuff.

Hello Martin, This is a reply to an earlier message because I'm still thereabouts on my lute mould. I have remade the plan and will now remake the spine and X pieces to see if I get a better fit. I am sure the plan is right now and I will take great care to get the spine and X pieces accurate. If no then well it will just have to do. I am keen to get carving and working on the Lute proper. It is all a good learning experience anyway.