Thread: Acoustic build no 1

Not just for hide glue, but I thought it would be faster than the rubber strap method,I have two brass pins to locate it ,then 24 screws, I did a test run and had it down in 80 seconds , If I glue it up when someone else is there it should be 40 ,but the 80 in a warm shop with hide glue should be fine. I looked at Steve's post to night and the way he clamped down looks just as quick , and not as much work to set up, but his mould shape allows it to be done that way by the look of it, I left my mould shaped square and the clamps would not reach the waist ,I dont think .

80 seconds!

I think I spent almost 10 minutes between applying the glue and giving the clamps a final squeeze down. I will admit there may have been just a quick sip on the beer during that time. I think I'll stick with the Titebond, this hide glue sounds much too stressful.

Originally Posted by auscab

Yeah Mike nice wood ,I went in Today and counted again , 8 bits = 4 backs and 4 sides, not 8 and 8 . I have used the sander on some Oak test bits and parts for two side tables in walnut, and a Kauri pine guitar top ,the front drum has 80 grit and the back 120 , it works well but you have to take it a little at a time , it got a bit hot with the Oak , loved the Walnut and Pine and cherry as well , I have it on wheels and it gets tucked away under some shelves when not in use.
Saw you post , I bet it was a lot of work, good on you for what you have made though, wish I could strum it.

Its getting close to the glue up Martin,got the clamp sorted Today for both sides , I wanted to have the top glued on Today but had to many interuptions and then I had to leave early.
It seems to work well ,follows the curve of the back ,and with the right pressure from the screws the whole thing pulls down and twists a bit to the right angle

A picture is worth a thousand words, now I get it. I can see how that would be much faster than a bunch of clamps. The top and back of my guitar are flat, so I just took some MDF board shaped to the top and back and used some double sided tape to stick some narrow strips of leather to the edges of the MDF and stuck it in my cheapo go bar system. It worked but I figured there had to be a better way.Mike

I got some new hide glue delivered, It's a bit more refined than the cabinet makers glue I have been using up to now,
Just learnt this by reading up on some other great sites,also learnt to refine my method of application.
New glue is in the little jar ,just covered with boiling hot water,this then sits in the larger jar
Attachment 154052
I also did some forum homework and learnt how to add pics and write in between

Fifteen minutes later looks like this, after a bit of a stir
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Then I put fresh hot water in a bowl,poured the glue in to a glass and sucked it up in to the little plastic bottle
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Made up this little ramp of timber which has the same angle as the curve of my top

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Then some 120 grit
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Then trimmed out the housing for the end of the braces
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Rob

Rob, That looks like a can of Behlens hide glue setting there, which is what I'm using when I do use hide glue. Did you measure the amount of boiling water before pouring it in or till it just covers the glue? I've got an electric glue pot, which I'll probably have to use during the cold months. I'm trying to figure a way to use the hide glue when the temps are low. Thought about getting some electric radiant floor heat and place under some MDF board, then putting the parts on it and a box over it to get things warmed up. Do you think it might work? Mike

With a few more test runs got it down to 60 seconds,I was using a cordless drill,

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When it came to do the glue up I got in to a bit of a mess,I applied the glue to the top of the kerf lining and picked up the top ,when I looked down the glue had disapeared down through the saw cuts and was to thin, in places running down the sides
Attachment 154067

I then gave it another layer and also did a run around the under side of the top and put it down,this worked but I had a bit of a clean up the next day on the sides with about six runs that I washed out with hot water on a rag and then used the heat gun to dry off
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When I did the back I knew what to expect ,I made the glue more thick and did a test on a bit of wood ,at about 80 seconds it was starting to get a skin but the glue sat higher and I went with it, just ran my finger round to wipe it so was back a bit from the edge,and got it down,next day I pulled it out and no runs, needs a little clean up ,within reach

This next picture shows where I really thought it had gone wrong ,to run my hand down the back it had reverse dips circled in chalk,I thought I would have to make a new back for sure, next day when I took it out of the mould it improved and sprung back a bit ,by rolling a straight edge over it scraping and sanding it has come up feeling good
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I tried out some Stanley scrapers but the good old basic hand held did all the work

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cheers Rob

Yeah it's the Behlens ,I got it from Stewmac over your side of the planet just cover it with water by 1/4 inch ,warm it up till it runs with no lumps, it will be to thick like that but from there just add a little hot water and play with it,you want to see it run out when you clamp or rub the joint together,or put a drop on a bit of wood and watch it and tap it ,you will see it form a skin then gell .We have had a few hot days here lately so it was good for me but if it were cold I would have probably had 10 or 15 seconds to clamp down, impossible ,

You would need to heat your whole work shop ,that would be best,but you can get by heating small parts ,your idea of heating in a box could work well ,you would have to test it.

Hide glue is brilliant glue ,we have used it a lot with restoration and in reproductions , just no good for gap filling, you probably have read that ? no loose joins . 25 years back a I sold a sea chest to a guy ,it was a really good 1820 s ripper of a chest, beautiful colour and patina ,he beat me way down on the price and I let it go, then he came back and got me to restore a three tier teloscopic dumb waiter ,and questioned the price and I did that job a bit cheaper for him , it had a gappy loose join to the foot and I glued it up with hide glue,thinking that traditional was the best,a year later he came in quite p,d off and told me that late one night the leg had let go and he had a antique glass epergne sitting on top that was now history ,I apologized sincerely but inside it was a Bill Hicks style "Gee sorry" Have you seen or heard Bill Hicks ? cheers Rob

Originally Posted by Heartstrings

I'm trying to figure a way to use the hide glue when the temps are low. Thought about getting some electric radiant floor heat and place under some MDF board, then putting the parts on it and a box over it to get things warmed up. Do you think it might work? Mike

A heater in the room to bring up air temps is a definite must for gluing in cold weather. I also pre-heat the glue up components if I can also using a painter's heat gun set on low.

I've got an electric heater but the shop ( my garage ) isn't too well insulated. Last year I managed to glue a fretboard up during the winter( it took 3 tries) by sticking the fretboard in the wifes oven, on warm, and that did the trick. The board was osage orange and did not give off a very pleasant smell whilst in the oven. I caught heck for that move, but whata ya gonna do? That guitar holds it tune better than any of the others, so I hope to make a complete switch to the hide glue eventually. The guitar is coming along nicely there Rob, won't be long before you'll be playing it.

I have one these small heaters that runs of lpg
bottled gas

Attachment 154128

it's up the back of this picture ,on the table, works well to get the temperature up quick, I have holes in the cieling and no insulation

If I rest my hand on the top while the body is sitting on a table I can feel the top vibrate to the radio or talking, and I can not stop holding it up to my ear and tapping all over, I compared it to an Ibanez with no strings and there is a bit of difference ,all exiting .

Have to rout the rebates next, in the morning I hope, just have to set up the inverted router,like Kinkade, looks risky it's that or build a overhead set up like they sell at Stewmac, would be interested to know which methods you all use ,also have to decide on the binding , I have plastic ivoroid and I think they say glue down with super glue, did some tests today with 5 minute epoxy ,seems to stick, I glued two small bits down and when dry pulled one off then I sanded the fresh side with 120 and re glued , will try to get it off tomorrow. was also thinking of some timber binding , pale Plane tree or dark figured Myall both would be fairly involved , not sure if the Myall will work.

A gas heater is definitly what I need, all it takes is money to get the shop the way I need it. I've used a heat gun like You suggest Martin and that really helps. What I'm hoping to install someday is a hot water radiant floor heat system, then I could build a gluing bench with a coil built into it to further warm the parts. I made my primary living as a plumber for 28 yrs and there are systems you can heat a small house with just a hot water tank, don't need a boiler. Still expensive though and I'd have to break up the concrete to install. I did have another question about that trimmer in the photo, what brand is it? I've never seen one with a clear base like, seems that would really be handy. Martin was saying on Steves thread that he can rout the tops and backs without taping the sides, he mentioned LMI's bearings which look pretty smooth compared to mine. I using a full size router and am wondering with the larger size if I'm not applying too much pressure. My old trimmer has worn bearings and is top heavy so I'm looking to replace it. ThanksMike

Rob, I went out and took a photo of a mold I use to pre bend bindings if you end up using wood, I was telling Steve about it. I'll place a piece of wet paper over the binding ( usually do 4 at a time ) then a thin piece of stainless over that, bend it around and hold it with spring clamps. Hit it with a heat gun to turn the water to steam and let it set a day or two. I use little blocks of MDF under the binding tape, like in the photo, to get a bit more pressure on the binding. Don't have to worry about excess glue, the MDF breaks easily if it gets stuck. I use Weld-On acrylic cement for plastic bindings, kind of messy though, and LMI's wood glue for wood bindings. The Weld-On is the only glue I've tried so far that will keep the plastic binding stuck to the heart inlays on my headstocks.

Originally Posted by auscab

Have to rout the rebates next, in the morning I hope, just have to set up the inverted router,like Kinkade, looks risky it's that or build a overhead set up like they sell at Stewmac

I tried something similar to Kinkead's method in my router table but, since I was using a bearing bit instead of just a straight bit, I couldn't safely get it high enough above the table to counter the curvature of the back, so went with the hand held method. You know the results of that one.

Originally Posted by Heartstrings

I did have another question about that trimmer in the photo, what brand is it? I've never seen one with a clear base like, seems that would really be handy. Martin was saying on Steves thread that he can rout the tops and backs without taping the sides, he mentioned LMI's bearings which look pretty smooth compared to mine. I using a full size router and am wondering with the larger size if I'm not applying too much pressure. My old trimmer has worn bearings and is top heavy so I'm looking to replace it. ThanksMike

Looks like a little Makita trimmer Mike. I've got the Maktec version and it's a great little tool. With regards to the bearings, I've just gotten the Stewmac set and they work perfectly without any marking whatsoever. I suspect the problem I had previously was that the crappy bearing on my cheap bit never actually stopped rotating when it contacted the sides so left that 30000rpm burn on the side. I got down and had a look at the new ones and they worked flawlessly.

I went to work and on the way decided I'd give some Huon pine a try for the binding,played with it and tried the heat gun Mike ,no water just held it to the side of the mould and it seemed to bend well,
I love the drum sander, playing around with timber that has to be from 4mm down to 1mm is now real easy , it's a breeze on narrow stuff.
like Steve said , the trimmer is a Makita .
After the binding I got stuck into setting up the router ,I got a new bitt on friday about 75mm long x 12.5 spiral cutter, I have a lot of walnut off cuts at the moment so used it.I thought of you Steve as I had to use my drill press and we had only been talking about them last week.
I changed it from the Kinkade one ,I made the fence tall, I dont know why his fence is so small but I thought if it dont work I will cut it down
2 coach screws come up through the fence and in to two Elm knobs . tried it out and did a small rebate arround my back, it was easy to use, with the tall fence I dont think I need to play arround with spacers