Thread: Massive tonewood source right under our noses

No worries Barry. I don't disagree with what you say. The builders here call radiata pine Pinus crapiata for good reason. I have used it in an owner builder project and it is 'orrible.

Have you used mountain ash in any of your violins? I have made 4 mandolins and a mandola with it and they are all some of the best sounding instruments I have ever made. With European Spruce tops they beat even the expensive european violin maple in my mandolins. I have one here now that is astonishingly good, and I am not the only one saying that. If it works in mandolins it should be good for violins. Mountain Ash is the big tonewood source that is under our noses, and that is with the tongue not planted in cheek. Pity so much has gone to the chipmills.

Pine, and spruce in particular, are the commonly accepted tonewoods for acoustic guitar tops in North America. National, Yamaha and Martin, to name three, commonly visit my region, looking for tone wood. The #1 rough tops go for about $50 each.
We have "tree prospectors" who are licenced to find and market trees of particular worth. Those trees are cut and carried off by helicopter to avoid any possibilities of internal damage if the "top-it-and-drop-it" philosophy is followed. Locally, the AAC (Annual Allowable Cut) of tone wood was 2,000 m^3 in 2009, don't know what it was last year.

What are you looking for? Trees growing in the shade (south sides to most of you) in ravines and gullies where cold winter temperatures and cool springs are prevalent. The key feature is narrow (1-2mm) but evenly spaced growth rings for consistent mechanical properties. Coming from southern California, Pinus radiata might not be premium but certainly better than adequate. While hardwoods might seem useful, the much shorter lengths of the fibers (plus vessels) will and does alter the elastic properties of the wood such that the softwoods, the conifers do appear to be somewhat better.
As a note, I'm a retired wood science professor who stuck it out in Forest Science courses for 31 years.

Originally Posted by mandoman

No worries Barry. I don't disagree with what you say. The builders here call radiata pine Pinus crapiata for good reason. I have used it in an owner builder project and it is 'orrible.

Have you used mountain ash in any of your violins? I have made 4 mandolins and a mandola with it and they are all some of the best sounding instruments I have ever made. With European Spruce tops they beat even the expensive european violin maple in my mandolins. I have one here now that is astonishingly good, and I am not the only one saying that. If it works in mandolins it should be good for violins. Mountain Ash is the big tonewood source that is under our noses, and that is with the tongue not planted in cheek. Pity so much has gone to the chipmills.

Hi Peter, and happy Xmas, and sorry!

No, I haven't used Mountain ash in a violin (yet), commonly known to me as Tasmanian oak....or is there a distinction? Anyway, I agree that it's a BIG tonewood source. Besides spruce, I've used Huon Pine, King Billy, Australian Red Cedar and Western Red cedar for violin tops. Each one has it's distinctive qualities, with Huon pine my least favourite.

However, I do have quite a bit of quartersawn tassie oak in my shop and I think I'll try it. Stay tuned.

Happy Christmas Barry, I am still trying to get over it too much food.
A few of the eucalyptus are suitable mountian ash and alpine ash, you say that Huon pine is your least favourite what is your reason.? as I have many customers that love it.
Regards Bob

Originally Posted by Baz1000

Hi Peter, and happy Xmas, and sorry!

No, I haven't used Mountain ash in a violin (yet), commonly known to me as Tasmanian oak....or is there a distinction? Anyway, I agree that it's a BIG tonewood source. Besides spruce, I've used Huon Pine, King Billy, Australian Red Cedar and Western Red cedar for violin tops. Each one has it's distinctive qualities, with Huon pine my least favourite.

However, I do have quite a bit of quartersawn tassie oak in my shop and I think I'll try it. Stay tuned.

Originally Posted by woodturner777

Happy Christmas Barry, I am still trying to get over it too much food.
A few of the eucalyptus are suitable mountian ash and alpine ash, you say that Huon pine is your least favourite what is your reason.? as I have many customers that love it.
Regards Bob

Yes Bob, everything about Huon pine is excellent except that I had a cello top collapse back in 2007. It was graduated on the famous Strad "Davidov" and turned out to be too thin to stand up to the downward pressure on the bass side. I have made a couple of violin tops with it since and left a fair bit of wood in them, with the result being a little "wooly". Has anyone else had that experience?

Hi Baz,

This is my experience as well. I built a tenor guitar a while ago with a Huon Pine top. The sound board make more a plunk than plink when it was tapper after bracing (kitchen lutherie is my style). The soundboard was a bit cardboardy to flex and the instrument does lack a little volume and clarity. But please dont think Im an expert. Im sure a better luthier would get a better result. I would have got a better result with a stiffer timber.

Hi Sebastiaan, I can not comment what when wrong with your Huon pine top or Barry's as I said I have had many customers use it with great success, My Huon pine is 100% fully quarter sawn and 2000 year old plus. I don't know what the finished thickness of the tops my customers end up with but I will ask. Cheers Bob

Hi Peter, and Barry,
Photos might be of interest another Pine Macrocarpa a true cypress, photos attached new Bass build by Alan Cringean Scotland. I also have a forum member who is building an acoustic from this species planted in Tasmania as a wind break.
Cheers Bob

Attachment 193027

Attachment 193028

Attachment 193029

Impressive stuff Bob.

I have a big lump of quarter sawn Huon Pine that I am going to resaw into guitar tops. Bought it around 17 years ago. So, eventually I will be able to report on the success or otherwise of Huon Pine. At the moment I have a guitar drying, and the workshop stinks of lacquer so I am not going near it.

Peter,

I don't know about a flat top guitar, but I made a flat top mandolin last year with a Huon Pine top (X brace also in Huon Pine) The braces were the usual dimension, and under a load of 20 kg at the bridge position, the top collapsed 4 mm. The cello I mentioned earlier also had a Huon Pine top (Strad graduations) and a Huon Pine bass bar (standard dimensions).

Of course I panicked and removed the cello top and replaced it with spruce. What I think I should have done was replace the bass bar with spruce and maybe increase its dimensions to discover where the problem existed. Consequently, I still don't know if the problem was caused by the bracing or the top or both.

Anyway, the experience has scared me off Huon Pine unless a lot of wood is left in it. It would be good to hear more stories about this wonderful smelling wood.

Hi Barry, Please check the customer gallery on my website there you will see a few beautiful builds with Huon Pine as the soundboard, my customers have told me the tops are a little thicker than what they would do if the top was spruce and this I have been told by a lot of my customers. Cheers Bob

Originally Posted by woodturner777

Hi Barry, Please check the customer gallery on my website there you will see a few beautiful builds with Huon Pine as the soundboard, my customers have told me the tops are a little thicker than what they would do if the top was spruce and this I have been told by a lot of my customers. Cheers Bob

Hi Bob

Yes I'll definitely have a look. And you have given me the answer I suspected all along that tops need to be thicker. However, I'm curious that spruce and Huon are given the same strength rating and are both categorised in similar structural ratings. As a timberman, do you know of any tests or science available that demonstrates relative compressive ratings or something like resistance to bending, stiffness or horizontal shear?

Of course, the treble side of the violin family has the sound post as a structural member, so a thicker top in violins is not a path I want to follow as it inhibits vibration, but I would use Huon again if an upsized spruce bass bar would solve that problem.

Hi Barry, All I know is that Huon Pine is softer and heavier than spuce apart from that not much else as tests have not been done as far as I know.
Regards Bob