Thread: MOlding flute material

Ohno,

I assume you mean this Shakuhachi http://www.shakuhachiyuu.com/

Mate, Im no expert on Shakuhachi but from general acoustical knowledge and a bit of mucking around I would suggest that there would be little difference between a plastic and bamboo Shak. The reasons, bamboo is generally rigid and impervious, plastics can be as well. From my readings the best Shaks are made from 100yo bamboo stored in the lofts of buildings above the fireplace and are presumably as hard as allowing high degrees of accuracy in carving.

Unlike guitars, mandos, violins etc the material of construction doesnt appear to be a prime factor in an instruments tonal qualities. Little energy is absorbed or transmitted by the tube and what is is dampened by the players fingers. I have made identical flutes out of aluminium and PVC with no discernable difference in tone or playability.

Where bamboo differs is the inside of the tube. Here the nodules affect the airflow and the tuning of the notes. This can allow the instrument to be tuned very precisely. Little lumps of beeswax are placed opposite toneholes, similar methods have been noted in top end 18thC European wind instruments. With plastic, aluminium etc the bore tends to be very straight and smooth leading to well documented tuning problems in the upper registers.

So where does all this end up? For most players material is an aesthetic consideration. Wood/resin blends should work just fine but making the mould would involve a lot of prepratory work alluded to in the above. PVC can make a very playable Shak, see http://www.navaching.com/shaku/pvc.html It would be a much easier place to start than bamboo or designing a mould. PVC can be painted as well. A brushed aluminium Shak could look good. Ive had a hard time sourcing suitable bamboo.

The Shak is really a vituoso instrument I cant get a note out of one, tried for months, probably the hairy lower lip. It has a great repotoire and of course the Zen mystique.


Sebastiaan

Cheers
I've been researching and making Shaks fro the last 3 years or so. Iam no pro of course but have made numerous versions from bmboo rods and pvc etc and in the proccess of doing so learnt how to play the things somewhat.

although the craftsman in me was unomfortable with the idea of not making it myself(but the only way to get a "proper" one) i recently comossioned David Brown(instrument maker) out at Monsalvat to make me flute. Its a gorgeuos redgum fiddleback piece and iam very happy with it.

This is a very pecial piece and will become part of my legacy.

What iam in the process of at the moment is creating small series of practice flutes that i can give to some of my close family so that they can learn a bit about how to ply these things.

I was going to just make some pvc ones but geez they are uninspiring.

Yesterday i ran into a guy who had a "plastic molded shak.". Which sounded good and looked a least a fair bit better than a pvc pipe.

Which hs led me onto this idea of making wood/resin molds

Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56

Ohno,

I assume you mean this Shakuhachi http://www.shakuhachiyuu.com/

Mate, Im no expert on Shakuhachi but from general acoustical knowledge and a bit of mucking around I would suggest that there would be little difference between a plastic and bamboo Shak. The reasons, bamboo is generally rigid and impervious, plastics can be as well. From my readings the best Shaks are made from 100yo bamboo stored in the lofts of buildings above the fireplace and are presumably as hard as allowing high degrees of accuracy in carving.

Unlike guitars, mandos, violins etc the material of construction doesnt appear to be a prime factor in an instruments tonal qualities. Little energy is absorbed or transmitted by the tube and what is is dampened by the players fingers. I have made identical flutes out of aluminium and PVC with no discernable difference in tone or playability.

Where bamboo differs is the inside of the tube. Here the nodules affect the airflow and the tuning of the notes. This can allow the instrument to be tuned very precisely. Little lumps of beeswax are placed opposite toneholes, similar methods have been noted in top end 18thC European wind instruments. With plastic, aluminium etc the bore tends to be very straight and smooth leading to well documented tuning problems in the upper registers.

So where does all this end up? For most players material is an aesthetic consideration. Wood/resin blends should work just fine but making the mould would involve a lot of prepratory work alluded to in the above. PVC can make a very playable Shak, see http://www.navaching.com/shaku/pvc.html It would be a much easier place to start than bamboo or designing a mould. PVC can be painted as well. A brushed aluminium Shak could look good. Ive had a hard time sourcing suitable bamboo.

The Shak is really a vituoso instrument I cant get a note out of one, tried for months, probably the hairy lower lip. It has a great repotoire and of course the Zen mystique.


Sebastiaan

Originally Posted by ohno

although the craftsman in me was unomfortable with the idea of not making it myself(but the only way to get a "proper" one) i recently comossioned David Brown(instrument maker) out at Monsalvat to make me flute. Its a gorgeuos redgum fiddleback piece and iam very happy with it.

Please share some pics, Id love to see it

I was going to just make some pvc ones but geez they are uninspiring.

Actually the boss chooses my clothes and I regularly tell my customers that I have no colour sense or taste. Aesthetics are just so subject to fashion. So pushing the envelope is always a risk with traditional instruments, Im in the middle of my mando thing and am wondering how they would go made out of polycarbonates, carbon fibre, aluminium etc or electric mandos with multiple pickups, hollow bodies, 5 courses etc. Im sure the purists would form an orderly queue to kick my lights out! Maybe the trick is not to call such instruments by an traditional name.

Yesterday i ran into a guy who had a "plastic molded shak.". Which sounded good and looked a least a fair bit better than a pvc pipe.

Ive looked many times at them so its good to hear that they are OK. What did the bore look like? Lumpy, smooth, tapered, constricted?

Which hs led me onto this idea of making wood/resin molds

Understandably, Ive never moulded with resin / wood mixtures, resin / toners seem dimensionally stable but from experience with casting statues shrinkage can be an issue. Keep us posted of your progress as these materials should be fun to machine,

Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56

Please share some pics, Id love to see it
. i WILL INDEED BUT ITS SO HARD TO CAPTURE THE ENTIRE BEUTY OF THIS FLUTE IN SHOT OR TWO.


Actually the boss chooses my clothes and I regularly tell my customers that I have no colour sense or taste (HUH?). Aesthetics are just so subject to fashion. So pushing the envelope is always a risk with traditional instruments, Im in the middle of my mando thing and am wondering how they would go made out of polycarbonates, carbon fibre, aluminium etc or electric mandos with multiple pickups, hollow bodies, 5 courses etc. Im sure the purists would form an orderly queue to kick my lights out! Maybe the trick is not to call such instruments by an traditional name.



Ive looked many times at them so its good to hear that they are OK. What did the bore look like? Lumpy, smooth, tapered, constricted?.
i DIDNT REALLY GET A PROPER CHNCE TO PROBE ROUND THIS GUYSS BORE AT THE TIME SO IAM NOT RELLY SURE
tHE SOUND IS PERFORMANCE QUALITY BUT THE PLASTICY MOLDED SHAPE OF THE PIECE ALMOST MAKES IT LOOK LIKE SOME SORT OF MARITAL SEX AID WHICH IM NOT ENTIRELY SURE BEATS THE PVC LOOK. hENCE I WONDER ABOUT A WOODDUST RESIN PIECE.



Understandably, Ive never moulded with resin / wood mixtures, resin / toners seem dimensionally stable but from experience with casting statues shrinkage can be an issue. Keep us posted of your progress as these materials should be fun to machine,

yOURVE DONE MOLDING THOUGH?.

CHEERS. b. pICS TO COME AND IAM IN THE PROCESS OF DOING LITTLE CUSTOMIZATION TO MY PIECE TO PERSOnalie it
NLISE IT.

Hi Ohno,

Actually the boss chooses my clothes and I regularly tell my customers that I have no colour sense or taste (HUH?).

Actually I often find my tastes are markedly different from my contemporaries, my clothes sense, my taste in music, food etc. So I delegate the image stuff to someone I trust that way I dont scare / shock customers or kids on the street. Similarly I dont feel abhorance or disdain to PVC as an instrument making material. It polishes really nicely, can be heat treated and bent, flared etc. I keep the printing on my instruments as I like the industrial look. Plastics are a legitimate material for any use that can be found for them as are timber, metal etc. For me the tradition thing is often just nostalgia.

i DIDNT REALLY GET A PROPER CHNCE TO PROBE ROUND THIS GUYSS BORE AT THE TIME SO IAM NOT RELLY SURE
tHE SOUND IS PERFORMANCE QUALITY BUT THE PLASTICY MOLDED SHAPE OF THE PIECE ALMOST MAKES IT LOOK LIKE SOME SORT OF MARITAL SEX AID WHICH IM NOT ENTIRELY SURE BEATS THE PVC LOOK. hENCE I WONDER ABOUT A WOODDUST RESIN PIECE.

I might acquire one of these things so I can get some understanding of it for myself. Please dont probe his bore just on my behalf.... As for resin/woodust I know of one Shak maker who repairs embrochures using a bamboo dust and resin so there is precedence. It should work.

yOURVE DONE MOLDING THOUGH?.

I have done 1000 odd Buddha statues using Dow Corning silicone moulding material and plaster / resin. The stuff is really easy to use. I think that for a tube like a Shak you would need an original to make your mould off. There would be issues with channels and markers for finger hole placement. Im sure there would be a patternmaker on the list who would help you with the detail. Dow has a really good instruction sheet on their site, or just ring them, they will also advise of local suppliers and the best materials for what you are trying to achieve. The may well sell suitable fillers. I suspect part of the reason the plastic Shak looks like a marital aid would be to differentiate it from the real thing, once again, queues of sword wielding traditionalists etc.

My procedure would probably be; build a box for the shak, attach bluetak bleeding channels to the Shak, fill in the fingerholes with bluetak, suspend the Shak in the box, pour in mouldmaking silicone. When it sets peel the mould off the Shak and reinsert the mould in the box. Fill the mould with resin mix and wait till it sets, peel off mould, trim, polish, insert mould back in box etc, etc.

A clear Shak would be cool too....

Yt

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