Thread: Nut Types and setups think tank

Acoustic or electric?

On my acoustics (6 and 12 string and classicals) I use a bone nut about 6mm thick.

Procedure for forming the slot it sits in as follows:

1. Neck/headstock scarf jointed.
2. Headstock veneer(s) glued on.
3. Fret board end of headstock veneer gets trimmed back with Japanese saw.
4. Fret board (slotted but not fretted) gets glued on with a 6mm thick dummy nut between end of same and trimmed end of headstock veneer. The nut is sitting on the main neck surface not on the headstock.
5. Nut blank around 8mm thick gets sanded to final thickness so its a tight fit in the nut slot. I dont use a dab of super glue to hold the nut in like some other builders do.

Zero frets...I don't use them and have never seen a reason to. For a factory built guitar it can reduce construction time as accurate set up of the nut is not required (cf to a guitar without a zero fret).

Cheers Martin

I'm a big fan of the Fender LSR Roller nut. They say it can offer more sustain, can't really tell a lot of difference but I like the idea of a "no friction" approach. I always accompany this with a roller bridge. Only problem is I'm yet to find one (LSR Nut) in a gold finish. I only do solid bodies.

I am in agreeance with kiwigeo on zero frets, OK if you want quick accuracy, but for mine, sort of defeats the purpose of building you own guit.

Ox

Kiwi,

It would seem i'm doing much the same as you, as for not gluing the nut in, do you ever have issues with expansion and contraction in changing weather?

The zero fret idea only appeals to me on the basis of almost eliminating the challenge of "open to intonated note consistency" where the "what better to provide consistency for open notes than something with the same mass, material and shape as the frets" theory comes heavily into play.

Also, has anyone had success using very wide (8mm plus) nuts on their builds?

Keep these answers coming guys!

Ox,

The idea of the fender LSR seems good, they have ball bearings as contact points, (spheres being one of the least lossy shapes on an acoustic basis) so as long as the mass of the entire nut is kept down, it would be very efficient at transmitting string resonances to the neck and would preserve a lot of those juicy harmonics and transients!

$95 though?

Had a chat to a well known luthier, who told me the gold ones don't exist. This sucks. unless you've got the time and money to take the bearings out and have it plated!

Originally Posted by Neilo

Ox,

The idea of the fender LSR seems good, they have ball bearings as contact points, (spheres being one of the least lossy shapes on an acoustic basis) so as long as the mass of the entire nut is kept down, it would be very efficient at transmitting string resonances to the neck and would preserve a lot of those juicy harmonics and transients!

$95 though?

Had a chat to a well known luthier, who told me the gold ones don't exist. This sucks. unless you've got the time and money to take the bearings out and have it plated!

Can actually pick em up for around 35 bucks on ebay, still expensive in the grand scheme, but worth it I reckon! yeah gold would be nice, but yeah, the time and money!

Ox

Originally Posted by Neilo

Kiwi,

It would seem i'm doing much the same as you, as for not gluing the nut in, do you ever have issues with expansion and contraction in changing weather?

Wood generally undergoes maximum movement across the grain and moisture generally enters via end grain. I use ebony mainly on my fretboards and movement in a properly dried piece of ebony is negligible.

An 8mm nut might suit some guitars but on an acoustic it generally starts to look clunky. Depends on the size and shape of the headstock of course.

Cheers Martin

You will have alot of difficulty in getting a low action with a zero fret. Neck relief is a must, which is bad news if you like a staight neck and I don't like the fact that you have no control on the string height at the zero fret.

If the nut is slotted and buffed properly, then there should almost be no friction.

Cheers,

Peter

Yeah, nothing annoys me more than a neck i can't get straight and low!! it's especially painful on the fretless!

Originally Posted by peterbrown

You will have alot of difficulty in getting a low action with a zero fret. Neck relief is a must, which is bad news if you like a staight neck and I don't like the fact that you have no control on the string height at the zero fret.

If the nut is slotted and buffed properly, then there should almost be no friction.

Cheers,

Peter

Originally Posted by Neilo

Yeah, nothing annoys me more than a neck i can't get straight and low!! it's especially painful on the fretless!

Neil,

Sometimes some relief in the neck will allow you to get lower with the action before the buzzes set in.

Off topic...the boss informs me that a heavy parcel has arrived at home. Sound like the router has been delivered.

I'm quite a fan of a zero fret in the right application, The zero fret is usually of a slightly higher size than the rest so it gives relief as a conventional nut would.
I also like bone nuts for a more conventional set up but these should be prepared well to allow the strings to slide with minimal friction .

After trying a few different ideas I think my personal preference would be to have a system that has minimal string length above the nut and also below the bridge .So locking the string for its playing length if that makes sense .

Great topic

Originally Posted by Mr K

I'm quite a fan of a zero fret in the right application, The zero fret is usually of a slightly higher size than the rest so it gives relief as a conventional nut would.
I also like bone nuts for a more conventional set up but these should be prepared well to allow the strings to slide with minimal friction .

After trying a few different ideas I think my personal preference would be to have a system that has minimal string length above the nut and also below the bridge .So locking the string for its playing length if that makes sense .

Great topic

Mr K,

A couple of comments:

1. I don't think the nut/zero fret exert a significant control on neck relief on a steel string and they are a crude way to adjust relief. On a steel string the truss rod is a much more effective way of controling neck relief. On a classical or a lute there is no truss rod so positive neck rake is a crude way of dialing in neck relief.

2. minimizing string runs from nut to tuner and saddle to string anchor are always a good thing but I think what you're trying to say indirectly is that string break angle over the nut and saddle is the critical issue. The actual string length is going to be such that break angle is optomised....keeping in mind that if the break angle becomes too excessive then string breakage is going to become an issue.

Cheers Martin

Thanks kiwigeo, I agree with your comments , In my comment regarding zero fret ,I was referring more to the relief it provides to the first fret as a conventional nut does , Neck relief is a different issue as you have stated . My experience is with electrics so truss rods and bridge height are the main controlls.

Cheers Mark

Sounds good. Neck relief is often poorly understood by players and even alot of builders. I cringe every time I get someone coming to me complaining that theyve tweaked their truss rod but can't get the action right. The habit of alot of manufacturers of supplying allen keys with their instruments isn't a well thought out one IMHO. Its a bit like a new car coming complete with an ignition timing light...in the wrong hands its going to cause major problems.

The package could only be either a baby elephant or a makita router, i figured both would cost the same to post!

Back on topic... I watched a violin building vet scrape the body half of the fingerboard for relief only a couple of years back, he explained to me that it was because the string acted something like a "skipping rope" and that the effect grew after the first 3-4 notes onwards (and by my reasoning, would again shrink for the highest of notes).
An interesting theory that seemed to work well for him, although i never got to play any of his violins!

This does make sense, but the problem I always encountered with tuning the bass guitar relief was at the highest notes, the relief was great from 0-15th frets, then it starts to go downhill and sustain goes out the window in that area! Maybe because the truss rod has no real influence over the heel of the neck, even on a body exit rod!
This is of course what led me to instead utilising a perfectly flat neck with my fretless, with minimal nut end relief and adjustment all at the bridge (easy as pie on an electric) which has seemed to work well, bar the heel relief problem...

The fingerboard will be on the bass in the next few days, with some frets if all goes well! I might tinker with this end relief theory and see what results I can pull up eh?

To the workshop I go, be sure to expect eerie green lights and the occasional explosion!

Originally Posted by kiwigeo

Neil,

Sometimes some relief in the neck will allow you to get lower with the action before the buzzes set in.

Off topic...the boss informs me that a heavy parcel has arrived at home. Sound like the router has been delivered.