Thread: oil-based grain filler

sure have - dont use nitro
Its dangerouse stuff and overated as a finish

as far as filling a swamp ash body i would recomend timbermate filler under stewmac WB lacquer [it dont stink]
With real open grain I use timbermate waterbased wood filler made into a slurry. and seasoned with feast and watsons stain to taste. [dark looks goodI] just slap it on with a brush and wipe it off when it has gone off a little with a credit card. I sometimes stain it up a bit to make the grain jump out. when you have cleaned up with the c/card hand sand it carefully so you don't pull up the filler.

Oh and dont forget to run a thin coat of WB sanding sealer [stewmac] BEFORE putting on the grain filler. f you dont, the stain in the filler discolours the wood too much you will get a good contrast between the filler and wood colour. you might need to fill and sand 3 or 4 times before you get it right I. then multicoats of s/sealer and 240 / 320 grit sandpaper until you have a good flat surface ready for lacquer.

i tried turps based stuff and it was horrible

heres one i done couple years ago



good luck
i wanna see pics

There is a method designed specifically for your application which is used in the trade.

I posted the process in this thread.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...hlight=durwood

Several members ahave tried it and found it works well, you may like to try it. Its basically a version of French Polishing for NC lacquer.

Originally Posted by old_picker

sure have - dont use nitro
Its dangerouse stuff and overated as a finish

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately I've already bought the nitro (as well as the dyes - I'm attempting a sunburst finish) so I'll go with it at this stage.

as far as filling a swamp ash body i would recomend timbermate filler under stewmac WB lacquer [it dont stink]
With real open grain I use timbermate waterbased wood filler made into a slurry. and seasoned with feast and watsons stain to taste. [dark looks goodI] just slap it on with a brush and wipe it off when it has gone off a little with a credit card. I sometimes stain it up a bit to make the grain jump out. when you have cleaned up with the c/card hand sand it carefully so you don't pull up the filler.

Is this filler available here? Where? Also, how would it go under nitro?

Oh and dont forget to run a thin coat of WB sanding sealer [stewmac] BEFORE putting on the grain filler. f you dont, the stain in the filler discolours the wood too much you will get a good contrast between the filler and wood colour. you might need to fill and sand 3 or 4 times before you get it right I. then multicoats of s/sealer and 240 / 320 grit sandpaper until you have a good flat surface ready for lacquer.

I thought you hit it with sanding sealer after using the grain filler - at least that's what I think I read on ReRanch

i tried turps based stuff and it was horrible

heres one i done couple years ago

Looks good.



good luck
i wanna see pics

I'll post a picture when I finally get it finished if it looks any good - it's my first one.

Thanks

Thanks Durwood,

That's very interesting, especially the bit about the metho and thinners to bring to a mirror finish.

Am I to understand that on an open grain timber like swamp ash, you would only use a sanding sealer, then follow it with nitro? I thought and was advised to use a grain filler - maybe I'm mixing up the two.

Thanks old picker,

But I've already bought the nitro - as well as the dyes, I intend to do a sunburst finish - so I'll go with it.

This water-based timbermate grain filler you talk about, would it be okay under nitro, and where to get it? Also, I thought you hit it with sanding sealer after the grain filler and before the nitro.

I'll certainly post a picture if it loos any good.

Thankyou again.

Originally Posted by telefinish

Thanks old picker,

But I've already bought the nitro - as well as the dyes, I intend to do a sunburst finish - so I'll go with it.

This water-based timbermate grain filler you talk about, would it be okay under nitro, and where to get it? Also, I thought you hit it with sanding sealer after the grain filler and before the nitro.

I'll certainly post a picture if it loos any good.

Thankyou again.

yeah it will go under anything - you get it at bunnings or mitre 10 and pretty cheap too
the idea of a sealer first is so you dont get the stain in the wood itself - the thin coat of sealer keeps the wood nice and clean.

the trick with it is not to sand too much..if you get the stuff staining the raw wood by the time you sanded the wood clean all the filler is pulled out. the idea is to gently rub the filler off the high spots with fine paper and leave it in the grain pattern thus making it stand out like the proverbial dogs b@lls. you might have to fill sand and shoot sealer on a few times to get it real good, actually when i think back i used lacquer in these coats as the sanding sealer has too much fillers in it. all you want to filling with at this stage is that grain pattern with stained filler. once you got that grain poppin right out you can start in with the sanding sealer.

prolly works best if you use a wooden sanding block so it dont flex into the grain pattern. Its definitely a PIA but when your done it looks great.

swamp ash is a real pain but it sounds sweet in a tele and looks really great...

if i done a good job on one i would think hard about shooting a burst over the top of all that sweet swirly grain around the edges.

but then if you going to cover it up you wouldnt bother coloring the grain on the edges

Thanks old picker,

Though I'm a bit confused by the difference between a grain filler and a sanding sealer, and is it absolutely necessary to use both on this type of project?

Also, If I'm mixing colours with the nitro, is it necessary to use a stain in the grain filler?

Finally, is it okay to apply the sanding sealer with a brush? I haven't investigated spraying equipment yet, but just wanted to get started on the timber preparations.

Ps. I intend sourcing most of the bits'n'pieces (tuners, bridge, nobs, electronics etc) from StewMac. If you know of any other alternative/quality sources I'd welcome the info.

Thanks heaps.

A grain filler is a substance used to fill in a gap in the wood surface (eg fret slot or grain pore). A sanding sealer is a liquid that forms a sealing film over a wood surface. ie grain filler is filling and a sanding sealer is sealing.

In theory you could fill in small gaps and grain pores using a sanding sealer but it would take endless coats and alot of time. On one of my guitars I didnt use a grain filler on the rosewood and opted to keep applying shellac until the wood surface was even. It gave a good result but in terms of the time spent it was not an efficient way of filling the pore spaces.

On my guitars which are all french polished, I used to use pumice to grain fill but these days I use an epoxy resin as a filler.

Hi Kiwigeo,

I seem to be going round in circles with this grain-filler business, but thanks for clarifying the definitions at least.

As you might have gathered i'm a novice and don't possess the broader knowledge to allow me to synthesise and generalise information to my particular needs. My specific dilemma is this: what brand/kind/type of grain filler can I safely use under a thinners-based sanding sealer and subsequently a nitrocellulose lacquer? And, where do I get it?

I've so far only been able to track down turps-based grain and water-based fillers. I was told by the people at DUROBOND that turps-based grain filler will definitely not do for under their sanding sealer (which I purchased and intend to use along with their nitro), and that they wouldn't think a water-based grain filler would be suitable with their product either.

What to do. I've got a hunk of wood (swamp ash), and thinners-based sanding sealer and nitro, but cannot go ahead untill I've sorted the grain-filler dilemma.

Not to mention what spraying equipment I'll need to buy for probably a one-off project.

HELP

I havn't used Durobond products, Always used Wattyl as it was the most available in my area. But I would think any wood filler would be able to be sealed with sanding sealer There is normally very little on the overall surface to stop the following material to adhere. Water based filler particually is usually OK as when it dries there is normally nothing present to react with other finishes but maybe Durobond is different.

Wattyl's wood filler which is oil based and is turps thinned can be sealed with their sanding sealer. Filler is a thick paste the idea is to fill up the grain of the timber quickly by wiping the paste usually with a piece of hession into the grain. The colour usually is of the dark colour of the timber (the inside of the grain cells ) if you wipe it on the bare timber it colours the lighter part of the timber and changes the overall colour.Thats why old picker suggested sealing first to stop it colouring just filling the paws of the timber. It still tends to tint the final result on some timbers thats why this step is bypassed and the lacquer is used to fill instead.


Do some experimenting on scrap material first. If the times stipulated on the tins are increased you will get better results. Let each material dry out well and truely just in case its a bit cool or you have applied a bit extra. If you want to test your results put some cellulose tape on the lacquer when its dry and see if you can pull off the finish. A severe test is to cut it with razor blade in a cross and apply the tape if it doesn't let go it probably never will. Obviously if it plays up straight away after you spray its no good.



Lacquer really needs to be sprayed on it dries too fast to brush anything of any size. As you are only doing a small article you only need a spray gun which will hold about 250mm. With all the cheap compressors and spray gear around It won't cost you much for a small set up but there must be someone you know of that has all or some of the gear. You would be supprised how usefull a compressor is to have around to pump up things and blow or spray with so maybe it would be worth while investing in one.

After fine sanding of the bare timber you can use sanding sealer (about 3 coats) this blocks off the timber stopping it absorbing the lacquer. You can just put on the lacquer but it takes more coats to get to the same point. Its made to sand and light sanding will remove imperfections and peel out of the surface but rub carfully especially edges.

Then apply the lacquer which drys so fast it is hard to apply unless you spray it. Its applied in thin coats leaving about 5 minutes or more between coats put on about 5 coats. Usually by this time you have sufficient coats to then pull over the lacquer with the pad.

When you apply paint by spray its difficult for the paint to get into holes in the surface as air always hits first and rebounds out of them. When you finish spraying it appears you didn't fill anything but you have put material in the grain as well as the high spots around them so it looks the same.

Using the pad to remelt the lacquer allows you to push the material around taking it off the high spots and put it into the holes. You can work it or spray more on any time if you think you need more to fill the grain. As you are softening the finish its a good idea to let the initial coats dry for a day and then work on areas and let them dry out as you use the pad you will get the idea once you work on it. Obviously the warmer it is the quicker the work can be progressed.

Brushing allows you to paint into the grain and the rule for timber is to always brush the first coat of any paint material on even if you are finishing with spray.

I have yet to see any timber which couldn't be worked to a smooth finish by remelting and rubbing the lacquer ( or Shellac ) into the grain.

I used Straight nitro over blackwood and Qld maple a few times with excellent results.
It took longer to achieve as I had to build up layers and sand back until a solid flat base was achieved. The build thread for one of those is here somewhere.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ad.php?t=47476

You can alternatively use water-based grainfill, then seal that off with white shellac. Then hit it with nitro.

cheers, Stu

seal first prolly use shellac if you using nitro
hit it with stained timbermate waterbase wood filler and dont worry you can put anything over this stuff and it will stick [nitro, wb, universal sanding sealer, poly, 2 pack]

then go over with with more shellac once you got the grain stained until you got it right but it will take a lot

personally i reckon nitro would go over uni sanding sealer just fine and it would be a lot quicker than shellac


how about a pic of the body - the grain might not need staining if its pretty well patterned

heres a build where they done that to the body of a strat and shot burst over it

Yep, the shellac,timbermate, shellac is without doubt a great way to go.
Safes as houses. (well,safe ones anyway.)

I'm against sanding sealer, though. (personal scarring )

I've become very disheartened by using sanding sealer in the past and have sworn off it due to the fact that when I've used it on figured timbers, it has clouded and negated the potential popping of the figure.

cheers, Stu

usually with figured timbers theres no need for sanding sealer
just start shooting lacquer straight on
i usually do give it 1 or 2 coat of SS though
the grain on figured timber is usually pretty tight and doesnt need filling anyhow