Thread: Has anyone made Rosettes or Purfling?

Hi Sebastiaan, I've done quite a few and would be happy to help as I can. I just did an oval hole mando rosette yesturday but didn't take any photos of it being made. I don't have any nifty set up for cutting the rosette in, I just follow the inside of the soundhole with a purfling cutter to get the outside and inside edge cut, then chisel out the middle.
I can show you some purfling making methods, did you have anything mind in particular?
It might take me a few days to get some photos together and get them up here, I'll see what I can do. I like to blame my super slow internet connection, but actually I'm pretty slow at the whole computer thing too.
Jack

Thanks for the response Jack. I would greatly appreciate you're advice.

Basically I tossing up between using Ablam and some purfling or laminating veneers into some kind of pattern. Ive decided on a blue chilli for the headstock logo so would love to keep the chilli theme going but the step between rope and the classical rosette is rather large.

A couple of quick questions, veneer is cut with the grain flat, therefore if I cut across it I will get a quarter sawn piece? Where do you get black material from? Seafood or timber for the soundhole inlay?

Sebastiaan

Hi Sabastiaan, very sorry but it seems my internet conection won't stay on long enough for me to upload photos. I've tried on an off for a day or so now, and have decided to give up!
Please do email me for more info if you like,
Cheers!
jack

Jack, are the photo's you have taken excessively large in filesize perhapse? If you are running windows XP, you can download a very small program called Powertoy Image Resizer (google it). It's free from Micro$oft, and after you install it, you just 'right-click' and image with the mouse, and choose 'Resize' from the menu.

The program itself is only about 150kb, which would take less than 1 minute to download on dialup.

If you download and install it, just resize the pictures with the program to around 640x480, or 800x600. This should be sufficient, and will reduce your filesize from 1mb down to less than 100kb.

Hi hammered, sorry to cause a fuss!I should have thought about this before I posted at all! I do shrink the files down, I use photoshop mostly, thanks for the advice though.
The internet here is crappy in a peculiar way, in that it drops out constantly, every 30 to 60 seconds. Makes uploading tricky. Again, sorry for the bother!
jack

Hi Sabaastian, I'm back again after all! The gods of the internet blow hot and cold, and inexplicably its working today! first time in ages.
I thought what I do might interest you as I'm not very patient, and so make purfling that's fairly low tech and not too complicated...
here are a few examples. The chain link kind of pattern is the easiest, although I have no pictures of the process so I'll have to try and describe it. The rope and the squares patterns are a bit more involved but still pretty straightfoward and I do have some pictures of the proccess...

heres a simple mandolin oval hole rosette, not too wonky I hope. And a guitar rosette done in the same way, just using more elements. I don'r have any pictures of the mando rosette being made but hopefully you'll get the idea from the guitar rosette. As a rule of thumb, I find it works to measure the width of all the purfling and veneers that I'm going to use in the rosette, then cut the channel for the rosette about 0.5mm wider. That seems to allow about the right amount of space for the whole lot to swell up with the glue and looks nice and tight, without being too tight to get it in. Its fiddly to start with so try a few times dry, but you'll get the hang of it and then its easy!

To make the links pattern in the photo above I started with a couple of sheets of black and white veneer. 0.6mm which is generally the easiest thickness to get. The white is sycamore and I think the dyed black may be sycamore too, or possible poplar. Sycamore and maple I find quite good as a white line veneer. They bend well without splitting, have very little colour variation across the anular rings so get and even colour edge on, also they seem to hold the white colour pretty well on the end grain which is good for this links design.
This design is simple a lamination three layers thick in the middle, giving the patter,bordered by two layers on the outside, making it 5 layers of 0.6mm.
To get the alternating pattern in the middle, glue up a sandwich of three veneers, black/white/black. And then a second one white/black/white. It doesn't really matter what sizes you glue up, but for the sake of this explanation I'll say the sizes I used and you can change it around to suit yourself.
The white black white segments are only 2.5mm wide. So I glued up a lamination about 25mm wide and about 500mm long. The black white black sections are wider, about 10mm, so I glued up a lamination about 60mm wide and 500mm long.
When They're dry, true up one edge and bandsaw the white black white into strips 2.5mm wide and the black white black into strips 10mm wide. I use a 24 tpi metal cutting blade on my small bandsaw and it make a nice smooth cut that needs no finishing off for this purpose.
Then I cut these strips into lengths about 75mm long. This length is the eventual width of the sheet of purfling stock and again it can be whatever you want, I find 3" a managable size.
So now there is a pile of little veneer sandwiches all 75mm long. The black white black ones are 10mm wide and the white black white ones are 2.5mm wide. Also the grain is running along the length of them, thats important..
Next get a flat board of chipboard or something- whatever you used to glue the veneer together already will probably do. make it about 80mm wide or wider and about 500mm long or so. Lay down paper on this board to stop it sticking to the glue. On top of the paper ( which you'll probably have to tape on) run a length of double sided tape right up the middle. I also often use ordinary masking tape, sticky side up, anchored at each end with bits of tape sticky side down, just because the masking tape comes off easier after its all glued up.
Next put the 75mm lengths of veneer laminations onto this tape. Arrange them so that they sit edge to edge and alternating, so that the 2.5mm white/black/white sits next to the 10mm black/white/black. the tape will keep them in place and push them up tightly against each other. That should end up with a row of the alterneting lengths being 75mm wide and however long it gets till they run out or its long enough for you.
Next cut a sheet of black veneer that covers the whole thing, plus a bit of overhang. So about 80mm wide and 400-500mm long. Glue this down onto the all the little sticks sitting on the tape, with a second flat board. use plenty of glue to get in to all the little bits. Give it a good long time to dry, 24 hrs at least, otherwise it will curl up too much when you take it out of the clamps.
When its dry, it will be a sheet 4 layers thick with the pattern on the edge. next true up one edge and bandsaw it into strips. About 2.5-3mm thick seem to be a good width. And thats it, the strips of purfling are made.
A coupe of things to note. One is that I didn't glue the 5th layer of black border veneer on before sawing it into strips. The reason for this is that the purfling is much more difficult to bend if both borders are glued on. I find it easier to add the second border in as the purfling is used in a rosette or as purfling. The second thing is the grain alightment. The way I described makes the face of the white veneer in the finish to be end grain. Its true that this dulls the whiteness a bit and is not ideal, however, i do it because the veneers as endgrain like that is very flexy and goes around curves very smoothly. I find if the grain goes the other way it tends to kink on the joins and looks a bit naf.
Hope that makes sence, I know I try to make up for my inarticulatness with too many words!

Thats a very simple design, the same basic method can be used to make something more complex for sure.

To make the rope pattern is a similar basic idea, and I've got some photos this time.
The pattern is started with a big block lamination. Could be any size again, I find a block about 30-40mm thick is managable, made up of 0.06mm sheets about 75mm wide and about 200mm long. The pattern can be whatever you like, all colours. Different thicknesses of veneer is great too, but I'm lazy and mostly use 0.6mm coz thats what there is.
Glueing up a block of that size is a bit of a mission and needs to go in stages, or else the first layers will be too dryed by the time it gets to clamps. make sue the pattern repeats from top to bottom as the slices cut from the block will be going edge to edge again.
The block will need a goodly long time to dry. About a week is good. if its still wet in the middle when it comes to cutting it it can be problematic.
When its dry, cut a wedge off one end at an angle of your choice for the rope pattern. or cut square on the end for the squares pattern.
Then cut the whole block up into slices starting from this face.
Easier said than done I know...the thickness of the slices depends on how wide the finished purfling is going to be. I usually shoot for somewhere between 2.5 and 3mm.
The glueing up method is the same as the one I described in the last one. So the slices only need one good flat surface. I avoid trying to flatten the slices once cut, as they are too fragile, so I plane the face of the block each time before cutting a slice, ending up with a slice with one flat side and one side rough from the saw.
I also find it near impoosible to saw the slices into perfectly even thickness. A combination of my lack of skill I think and the bandsaw being alergic to big laminated blocks full of glue.
I've got around that though and this system works for me... I start with a flat board for gluing same as before, but this time before taping on the paper I lay on a length of hard rubber foam- the stuff camping bed rolls are made of is good, about 10mm thick of dense rubber. Then i put on the paper then the length of tape. Then lay the slices down edge to edge, lining up the pattern. I putr them with the rough sawn side facing down onto the tape and the hard rubber, and the flat glueing surface up.
Then I glue it up with a border veneer as before. I find the hard rubber takes up the uneven thickness in the slices very well.
When dry the rough side can be planed to thickness or put through a thickness sander to whatever thickness siuts the pattern.
This sheet can then be sliced up into lengths of purfling as before...

Thank you Jack,

A couple of questions, what glue do you use? Do you bend the purflings on the iron before fitting? (eliminates HHG). Im going to print, digest, and try some before I ask any more questions,

Its a mind blow how the laminations when viewed from a different angle produce these patterns. Thats the head bit I havent got hold of yet, gotta make some..

Sebastiaan

I like your explanation Jack.

It almost seems easy enough to try.


OK Sebastiaan, show us what you got!!

Well I havent got a bandsaw.....







yet......

Hi Sabastiaan, it is kind of tricky without a band saw! sorry about that. Only need a small one though.
To answer your questions, I use titbond which works fine and the strips bend easily with a bit of heat. I do find I need to heat bend them for the tight bend in a rosette, but the easier bends around the outside a guitar it usualy goes around cold.
I think using a cheaper PVA glue would be good, I use titbond because its what I have in bulk. A glue that works a bit slower would be usefull for glueing up the the big block of laminations, bit cheaper too as there is a lot of glue in it!
Using the purfling around the outside of a guitar requires a reverse bend at the waiste. Sometimes I heat this bend in, more often just crack the purfling in and it breaks neatly along the lines of the pattern and looks fine. For a tight bend it's sometimes neccesary to cut the purfling and turn it around the other way for the bend. This is easier than it sounds as all these kinds of patterned purfling strips join very easily and invisable on the lines of the pattern. So keep all the short lengths left over, they can still be used
Jack

Sebastiaan,

For a detailed spiel on making rossetes and your own purfling see Courtnall's book "Making Master Guitars". Looks like his method is basically the way Jack does it.

Campiano also covers making your own rosettes.

Me....I generally buy made up rossetes from LMI or Stewmac and Id reccomend doing this for a beginner.

Cheers Martin