Thread: Is anybody using waterbourne lacquor?

i use it
you probably already have 2 moisture traps between the gun and compressor

Ive always wondered how moisture can effect a lacquer that is water based....

Ive had limited experience in using the stuff LMI supplies. It didnt offer anything I couldnt already get with usual lacquers, and felt it didnt 'pop' the grain as much. However, after a heavy spraying schedule (thinner based stuff) I do find it effects my health a little, no matter how much protective gear i chuck on.

Care to list up a brief work schedule on how you use the waterbased stuff Ray?

Originally Posted by rhoads56

Ive always wondered how moisture can effect a lacquer that is water based....

Ive had limited experience in using the stuff LMI supplies. It didnt offer anything I couldnt already get with usual lacquers, and felt it didnt 'pop' the grain as much. However, after a heavy spraying schedule (thinner based stuff) I do find it effects my health a little, no matter how much protective gear i chuck on.

Care to list up a brief work schedule on how you use the waterbased stuff Ray?

sure - i will add a bit more detail for those who dont know the routine stuff

i use the stewmac stuff which is rebadged target em6000
i use straight out of the can - i have added water at the bottom of can that has sat a little to long with no adverse affects

sand to 400 grit and level with the colortone sanding sealer maybe 6 or 8 coats - whiskering with a damp cloth prior to shooting the initial coats is crucial - if you sand through the SS your screwed - it leaves a mark that won't go away -

get maybe 4 or 5 coats down before any level sanding - use 400 grit - once the pores are filled, level with 400 to 600 in prep for the lacquer - the SS has a bit of guts and builds pretty good - make sure you get a dead flat surface before any shooting lacquer

the lacquer goes on in lots of 3 coats up to maybe 4 or 5 times - level sand after every 2nd lot of coats with 600 - ie 3 lots of 3 coats - next day the same and let it cure for a couple days [warm and dry] level and repeat - it does burn in quite well to the previuos coats -

in some cases you will get a kind of lacey pattern on the surafce after 1000 grit - finish with 1200 this pattern comes out with the auto medium cut compound - then go with fine cut, swirl remover then polish - this is sometimes indicative of not curing long enough -

a coat dries in 15 to 45 minutes ready for a respray - i have shot it in all kinds of shi##y hot, cold and wet weather with no issues - if its real cold and wet i use arc lights to keep things warm

wood with open pores needs grainfill - if you use only the SS and lacquer you will get some pore sink after a few months

shoot 3 lots of 3 coats let cure for 3 to 4 days in a dry warm area then sand and repeat
pretty much through the whole process - after final coat pull the masking immediatley and hang for 3 weeks and its ready to go

it does have a chemical smell to it and enough for me to wear a decent mask - nothing more than painting with any acrylic house paint though but all those fine particles mmm you dont want it in your lungs - where i shoot the gun out after a session the ground is covereed in grass and all sorts of spiders bugs and other miscelaneous life forms - that tells me a lot about the toxicity of the stuff

and perry is right the grain doesnt "pop" quite like it does with some other finishing systems but i have to say i have got very satisfying results - you can "help" things along by staining and sanding to highlite the grain more prior to applying finish

Yeh I use it too. Below are a few examples of the results I got.

I use a technique very similar to old picker, except I wipe on a few coats of blonde shellac, which definately improves the "pop" in my opinion. I wipe on two coats before grainfilling and wipe on two coats after leveling the grain filler.

I do approx 8-10 coats of Colourtone SS and then 10-12 coats of colourtone topcoat.

You can get excelent results, however you have to use thin coats and you have to use a different technique to traditional thinner styles. If it goes on too thick then because it dries so fast, it can create a skin which stops the inner lacquer from drying properly which causes a cloudy effect in the finish. I suspect that the main thing that puts people off WB is that they use the same techniques that they use for thinner based laquers only to get poor results with the WB.

Over spray is a bit of a pain in the ring because it dries so quick and you have to lay on thin coats, so I find I have to level every 6 or so coats max, and I have found that as long as you keep leveling, and keep the final finish nice and thin with the shelac sealer you get a nice sparkle and reasonable pop.

It is not quite as hard and durable as nitro or two pack, but it definately has its benefits which makes it a viable option in my opinion.

A MASK IS A MUST AND MAKE SURE YOU PUT CHEMICAL CARTRIGES IN IT NOT DUST CARTRIGES.

Cheers,

Peter

So when you say thin... how thin?

Let say, compared to nitro, thinned 50/50... we now how thin that would need to be sprayed.

Ive got to the point in the last 18 months, where I only need a tiny spot buffing on a part of the edge of a body, or maybe the tiniest bit on the front or back when finishing most guitars due to a single bit of dust. This is with two pack, and I limit to 5/6 coats. Thats thinner than nitro, tougher, longer lasting, and quicker. Two coats the first day, one per day after that, rubbing back in between.
If its a solid of metallic colour, two pack primer (one 3/4 coat, then one normal, both coats are a different shade so I know when Im rubbing through), two thin coats of colour (or a third "dust" coat if its metallic), and three coats of clear.

But, I despise cleaning out the guns EVERY time I spray, and the smell lingers even 45 minutes later. If i get a scratch in the final coat while assembling, man, what a pain to buff out. Its TOO tough.

You might want to try other products Perry. I use Mirotone Acid Catalyst. It's a two part lacquer, pot life is about 2 days depending on the weather. I use between 10 and 15 coats on an instrument. 6 coats a day, 3 days in a row, just sand in the morning before starting your day. It dries somewhere between nitro and poly. It's NOT an evaporative finish, everything you shoot on the guitar will STAY on the guitar and harden. I'm pretty happy with the results after having used it on three basses.

I haven't tried using pigments or colortone stains in it yet so can't recommend it for that but its great for clear coats. Its also good enough to act as its own sealer. It's essentially a lacquer with a hardener in it so no need for all the extra gear required for polys. In addition to that, a 4 litre tin and 400ml hardener (10:1 ratio) is about $90 and you use about 500ml-800ml per instrument. Like I said, everything you spray on it, stays on it.

Originally Posted by Phil Mailloux

You might want to try other products Perry. I use Mirotone Acid Catalyst. It's a two part lacquer, pot life is about 2 days depending on the weather. I use between 10 and 15 coats on an instrument. 6 coats a day, 3 days in a row, just sand in the morning before starting your day. It dries somewhere between nitro and poly. It's NOT an evaporative finish, everything you shoot on the guitar will STAY on the guitar and harden. I'm pretty happy with the results after having used it on three basses.

I haven't tried using pigments or colortone stains in it yet so can't recommend it for that but its great for clear coats. Its also good enough to act as its own sealer. It's essentially a lacquer with a hardener in it so no need for all the extra gear required for polys. In addition to that, a 4 litre tin and 400ml hardener (10:1 ratio) is about $90 and you use about 500ml-800ml per instrument. Like I said, everything you spray on it, stays on it.

I started out using the Mirotone Acid Catalyst. Still have 10 litres of it, left over from a 20 litre drum. I dont like it. I found it's too amber, and does change colour over time (very slightly). Pure bright whites and blues are impossible with a lacquer thats already golden orange.
I had EXTENSIVE experience spraying the acid cure previous to building guitars. In fact, I was even asked on a couple occassions to be a "witness" and "expert" on problems with the product in court disputes between clients and cabinet makers. I feel it adds a little too much colour to the timber, and doesnt hold its shine as well as some. Buffs nicely though, and easy enough to spray. Be VERY careful with your hardner ratio. If you get even 2% too much, it will bleed through every coat, and leave a dusty milky white fine powder on the surface. It takes years for this to slow and eventually stop.
It also eats into decals, and inks, eg: when I put my "handmade by..." on the back, it would eventually disolve these. Takes a few months to happen, so its not immediate.... but there are guitars out there now without serials or dates on them because they simply disappeared...
I dont recall exactly, because its been about 7 years now, but Im sure I had no issues with mixing stains with it.

Ive tried acrylic, Nitro (both real and "fake"), waterborne, and auto two packs. And, a mixture of all of them (auto 2k base, nitro top coats, etc etc) My best results come from two pack, and nitro. Nitro is sooo forgiving and easy to spray, but im concerned over longevity and strength. Two pack just holds that nice shine so much longer, and doesnt chip as easily. All my favourite stains mix well with both products, and I can get any colour I like for metallics and solids or opaques.

Can you easily get lets say... metallic mid blue, in Waterborne? Or is it limited to clears only? I have some white and black here, but Ive never looked for colours or metallics.

Pete, you reminded me about the shellac wash coat. I did discover that popped the grain the way I like, prior to waterborne spraying. Ive tried so many different techniques to find my own personal favourites, I forget half the stuff that Ive done.

Originally Posted by rhoads56

So when you say thin... how thin?

Let say, compared to nitro, thinned 50/50... we now how thin that would need to be sprayed.

Ive got to the point in the last 18 months, where I only need a tiny spot buffing on a part of the edge of a body, or maybe the tiniest bit on the front or back when finishing most guitars due to a single bit of dust. This is with two pack, and I limit to 5/6 coats. Thats thinner than nitro, tougher, longer lasting, and quicker. Two coats the first day, one per day after that, rubbing back in between.
If its a solid of metallic colour, two pack primer (one 3/4 coat, then one normal, both coats are a different shade so I know when Im rubbing through), two thin coats of colour (or a third "dust" coat if its metallic), and three coats of clear.

But, I despise cleaning out the guns EVERY time I spray, and the smell lingers even 45 minutes later. If i get a scratch in the final coat while assembling, man, what a pain to buff out. Its TOO tough.

Perry, I don't thin the WB laquer for spraying, I was talking about the final rubbed thickness of the finish when dried. When the WB finish is too thick my experience is that it has a dullness to the timber colour. But if the final laquer isn't too thick, you still have good colour. However I have not been able to get a technique right where I can just lay coat on top of coat and just level and buff at the end, I have to keep leveling throughout so that the finish stays nice and thin. This is quite labor intensive which may make WB not a viable option for some. To be honest the main reason I use WB is because of the hazards associated with the solvent based finishes and I don't have the set up or workshop to do anything else to get a high gloss, however I have found that the results acievable with the WB finished with the current products available are better than the reputation that is for WB laquer.

I haven't used metalics or solids with the WB. I have used tints which look pretty good, however I have had a few problems with the tints "running" through clear top coats and creating a "matting" to the finish if too much tint is added. It is something I need to experiment with more to optimise.

Has anyone tried the KTM finish? It is something I have considered, however the reviews I have read have been mixed. Some swear by it and some curse it.

Cheers,

Peter

Originally Posted by peterbrown

Perry, I don't thin the WB laquer for spraying, I was talking about the final rubbed thickness of the finish when dried. When the WB finish is too thick my experience is that it has a dullness to the timber colour. But if the final laquer isn't too thick, you still have good colour. However I have not been able to get a technique right where I can just lay coat on top of coat and just level and buff at the end, I have to keep leveling throughout so that the finish stays nice and thin. This is quite labor intensive which may make WB not a viable option for some. To be honest the main reason I use WB is because of the hazards associated with the solvent based finishes and I don't have the set up or workshop to do anything else to get a high gloss, however I have found that the results acievable with the WB finished with the current products available are better than the reputation that is for WB laquer.

I haven't used metalics or solids with the WB. I have used tints which look pretty good, however I have had a few problems with the tints "running" through clear top coats and creating a "matting" to the finish if too much tint is added. It is something I need to experiment with more to optimise.

Has anyone tried the KTM finish? It is something I have considered, however the reviews I have read have been mixed. Some swear by it and some curse it.

Cheers,

Peter

KTM is what I used. Im sure there is a good 750ml left. If I can find the tin, i'll send it to you, and you can try it out.

Originally Posted by rhoads56

KTM is what I used. Im sure there is a good 750ml left. If I can find the tin, i'll send it to you, and you can try it out.

Thats a very generous offer. thanks. What was your experience with it? How did you apply it? My main interest is how hard did it finish up?

Cheers,

Peter

That is a great offer you made Perry.

It seemed fine to me, but it just didnt pop enough, and I didnt like the idea of running two guns (water and thinner based systems), plus the issue with finding colours etc.

I was just starting to get my 2k jobs to a point where they would buff up mint, so didnt want to have to relearn a new system all over again.