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  1. #61
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    Yes there are some intriguing designs for open baffle speakers and I'm looking at them as a possible project in the near future. I have a couple of stand mount midsize units to make and then I'm going to look a little closer at the open baffle idea.

    In the mid 1970's I went to an Audio show in Brisbane, in the days when B&O were all the rage and electrostatic towers. There were some really interesting looking speakers there that I remember being open baffle and as I recall they sounded excellent.

    I had thought of doing some transmission lines as well but that seems a little hit and miss design wise.
    Keep up the good work and whaddyah mean $1.50
    Dust Mite...Terrorising noses for the discerning...
    Pirongia Pens & Woodcraft

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  3. #62
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    Dec 2011
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    Brisbane
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    I was looking at Transmission Line then I somehow wound up looking at folded horns and playing with Hornsrep.

    I don't particularly like have the back of the speaker facing forwards, but those in the know seem to think push / pull on OB helps dampen distortion.

    Apparently it cancels out the even frequency harmonics.

  4. #63
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    Certain sense of irony in the following sentence… The reason I joined the forum almost doesn’t exist anymore!
    I joined to learn how to build some tricky speaker cabinets, but through a process of evolution, I have almost made the cabinet obsolete.
    I have gone through numerous ideas, but I am currently investigating a modified version of an open baffle (for those that don’t know what an open baffle is, it is basically the front board of the speaker, without sides or a back)
    I am currently looking at a no baffle or naked baffle, which means the one piece of wood that was involved is now removed. Basically the speaker is suspended on wire from a frame.

    DSC_1312.jpg

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeadScratcher View Post
    Certain sense of irony in the following sentence… The reason I joined the forum almost doesn’t exist anymore!
    I joined to learn how to build some tricky speaker cabinets, but through a process of evolution, I have almost made the cabinet obsolete.
    I have gone through numerous ideas, but I am currently investigating a modified version of an open baffle (for those that don’t know what an open baffle is, it is basically the front board of the speaker, without sides or a back)
    I am currently looking at a no baffle or naked baffle, which means the one piece of wood that was involved is now removed. Basically the speaker is suspended on wire from a frame.

    DSC_1312.jpg
    I will be watching this with interest. I bet the woofers are not suspended on wire. Sort of changes the decor aspect a bit tho. Interesting toy for toddlers too I would think.

    Dean

  6. #65
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    Been a while since I have posted an update, so time for a picture... As mentioned earlier I am looking at basically going frameless.
    It has taken longer than expected to import drivers from various sources, and I still have some on back order.

    These frames are just quick prototypes. I am still trying to work out what the final speaker configuration will look like. Quite possibly there might not even be a frame at front at all (mount the drivers by the magnets at rear)

    Dean correct woofer is a little hard to suspend by wire, especially when the magnet weighs 15kgs alone. Little fingers are not a problem.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeadScratcher View Post
    Been a while since I have posted an update, so time for a picture... As mentioned earlier I am looking at basically going frameless.
    It has taken longer than expected to import drivers from various sources, and I still have some on back order.

    These frames are just quick prototypes. I am still trying to work out what the final speaker configuration will look like. Quite possibly there might not even be a frame at front at all (mount the drivers by the magnets at rear)

    Dean correct woofer is a little hard to suspend by wire, especially when the magnet weighs 15kgs alone. Little fingers are not a problem.
    I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but those drivers were never designed to operate in free air. If you really have a keen ear, you are going to be bitterly dissapointed at the results.
    Harry

  8. #67
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    Think I would be far more dissapointed if I paid $188,000 for those same drivers in these not to work...
    Attached Images Attached Images

  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeadScratcher View Post
    Think I would be far more dissapointed if I paid $188,000 for those same drivers in these not to work...
    How are the drivers wired and what is the final impedance presented to the amplifier? Also what type of crossover are you using?
    Harry

  10. #69
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    There wired in series / parallel, so it comes back to the same 4 ohm that the drivers started at.
    x-over is courtesy of a Ground Sound DCN28 Ground Sound
    The DCN28 is far from cheap but worth every DKK.

  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeadScratcher View Post
    There wired in series / parallel, so it comes back to the same 4 ohm that the drivers started at.
    x-over is courtesy of a Ground Sound DCN28 Ground Sound
    The DCN28 is far from cheap but worth every DKK.
    Who actually designed the speaker system?
    Harry

  12. #71
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    A few people have chipped in with suggestions / help. The select few I am listening to own their own businesses doing speaker design and building.
    Sound is quite subjective, so I am basing most of the design off what I already know and like. I have been running a pair of $13,000 Sonus Faber Cremonas for about the last 8 years, this project is designed to be a step up from what I already have.

    The Cremonas use the older ScanSpeak Revelator series drivers which are used in quite a few high end speakers, the ScanSpeak Illuminators I am using in this build are designed to be the top of the ScanSpeak range. The also have the underhung neo magnet motors which are well suited to OB.

    I could have used more exotic drivers but decided to stick with what I know, I like the sound of the ScanSpeak drivers, I just wanted to take it to the next level. I got interested in the open baffle design while testing out the 12MU drivers. Listening to them in free air I come to realise I liked the uncoloured sound of open baffle, that the cabinet unavoidably introduces.

    I realise that going open baffle doesn't come without a cost, and the drivers roll off far quicker when not in a cabinet, especially bass which requires much greater thought about how to counter act the natural 12dB roll off. But each of the drivers are being used well within their respective ranges and having virtually infinate x-over options, I can easily avoid cone breakup through simple active adjustment. I can also EQ the bass to bring the bass back into spec.

    I have deliberately chosen low Q drivers for the greater driver control, whilst it does cause the driver to roll off even sooner those in the know have no problems in using them for OB, provided proper xovers slopes can be implimented to stop xmax.

    A fair bit of research has gone into what I have come up with. Whilst I only have one prototype finished and I have the second side only half complete the sound coming out of what I have already exceeds what the Cremonas are capable of.

    Here is a picture of what the finished speakers might look like, not much in the way of skilled wood work but there will be some.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeadScratcher View Post
    A few people have chipped in with suggestions / help. The select few I am listening to own their own businesses doing speaker design and building.
    Sound is quite subjective, so I am basing most of the design off what I already know and like. I have been running a pair of $13,000 Sonus Faber Cremonas for about the last 8 years, this project is designed to be a step up from what I already have.

    The Cremonas use the older ScanSpeak Revelator series drivers which are used in quite a few high end speakers, the ScanSpeak Illuminators I am using in this build are designed to be the top of the ScanSpeak range. The also have the underhung neo magnet motors which are well suited to OB.

    I could have used more exotic drivers but decided to stick with what I know, I like the sound of the ScanSpeak drivers, I just wanted to take it to the next level. I got interested in the open baffle design while testing out the 12MU drivers. Listening to them in free air I come to realise I liked the uncoloured sound of open baffle, that the cabinet unavoidably introduces.

    I realise that going open baffle doesn't come without a cost, and the drivers roll off far quicker when not in a cabinet, especially bass which requires much greater thought about how to counter act the natural 12dB roll off. But each of the drivers are being used well within their respective ranges and having virtually infinate x-over options, I can easily avoid cone breakup through simple active adjustment. I can also EQ the bass to bring the bass back into spec.

    I have deliberately chosen low Q drivers for the greater driver control, whilst it does cause the driver to roll off even sooner those in the know have no problems in using them for OB, provided proper xovers slopes can be implimented to stop xmax.

    A fair bit of research has gone into what I have come up with. Whilst I only have one prototype finished and I have the second side only half complete the sound coming out of what I have already exceeds what the Cremonas are capable of.

    Here is a picture of what the finished speakers might look like, not much in the way of skilled wood work but there will be some.
    When you determine how a system sounds, what do you use as a reference. Do you go to concerts that don't have amplified sound systems? You did of course use the correct description when you said that how one processes sound is SUBJECTIVE. I can't help wondering how an amplifier even with a damping factor of 16 can control cones that are flapping about in mid air, it goes against everything that I was taught and learned in all the years that I was actively involved with high spending audiophiles, the ones who we affectionately knew as the "golden ear brigade".
    Harry

  14. #73
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    Hi Harry, after 30 years of chasing the perfect system, I would say I have fairly decent ears myself, maybe not golden but age is starting to catch up with them. I am still capable of hearing thing others can’t, so they can’t be too bad.

    Yes real life is the only thing to compare to, which requires different sound stages i.e. concerts, pubs, open air etc. to build up a compilation of mental notes of the varying sound characteristics of the surroundings, also I find various horns and wood instruments very good as a mental bench mark.
    When an instrument sound exactly the same as it does in real life you know you’re on a winner. Piano is a particularly hard one to reproduce well. If I can close my eyes and feel the concert in front of me and all the subtle nuances around me, I know I have reached my goal.
    But as I say sound is extremely subjective and there is no right and wrong only what you like. We could both go to the same concert and sit side by side and come away with completely different interpretations of what we heard.

    The problem with the cabinet is that not only does it colour the sound, but it compromises the notes being played. in open baffle there is no cabinet pressure trying to supress the cone. When a key on the piano is struck in OB it is allowed to decay in a much more natural manner like it does in real life.
    But there are no free lunches controlling issues like cancellation through reflection is a much harder issue to deal with, and far more thought needs to go into room acoustics and placement.

    Drivers have come a very long way since the early days, there have been many advance in all areas that allows for far greater driver control under varying and extreme circumstances. In fact I would question how golden the ears were of yesteryear… while they might have stood out in their day as being masters of their craft, did they really hear the faults of the drivers that were inherent of the time? Only as you advance technology and remove the faults can you retrospectively look back and see the faults. This would be akin to comparing the driving of Fangio to Senna.

    Fangio is a legend in his own right, but how would he have gone up against Senna in a much faster era, where the speeds are significantly different. Likewise should we really compare our speaker knowledge of yesterday with what we have in front of us today? While we are the sum of our knowledge, we almost need to let some of it go to let new stuff in, otherwise we get stuck trapped in yesterday’s thinking, and don’t embrace the ideas of today. Not everything that is new is good, and not everything that is old is bad, but we need to be adaptive to pick the best and discard the rest.

    For me I think I would be hard pressed going back to listening to music in anything where the driver was trapped in a cabinet. Movies are a whole different ball game.

  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeadScratcher View Post
    Hi Harry, after 30 years of chasing the perfect system, I would say I have fairly decent ears myself, maybe not golden but age is starting to catch up with them. I am still capable of hearing thing others can’t, so they can’t be too bad.

    Yes real life is the only thing to compare to, which requires different sound stages i.e. concerts, pubs, open air etc. to build up a compilation of mental notes of the varying sound characteristics of the surroundings, also I find various horns and wood instruments very good as a mental bench mark.
    When an instrument sound exactly the same as it does in real life you know you’re on a winner. Piano is a particularly hard one to reproduce well. If I can close my eyes and feel the concert in front of me and all the subtle nuances around me, I know I have reached my goal.
    But as I say sound is extremely subjective and there is no right and wrong only what you like. We could both go to the same concert and sit side by side and come away with completely different interpretations of what we heard.

    The problem with the cabinet is that not only does it colour the sound, but it compromises the notes being played. in open baffle there is no cabinet pressure trying to supress the cone. When a key on the piano is struck in OB it is allowed to decay in a much more natural manner like it does in real life.
    But there are no free lunches controlling issues like cancellation through reflection is a much harder issue to deal with, and far more thought needs to go into room acoustics and placement.

    Drivers have come a very long way since the early days, there have been many advance in all areas that allows for far greater driver control under varying and extreme circumstances. In fact I would question how golden the ears were of yesteryear… while they might have stood out in their day as being masters of their craft, did they really hear the faults of the drivers that were inherent of the time? Only as you advance technology and remove the faults can you retrospectively look back and see the faults. This would be akin to comparing the driving of Fangio to Senna.

    Fangio is a legend in his own right, but how would he have gone up against Senna in a much faster era, where the speeds are significantly different. Likewise should we really compare our speaker knowledge of yesterday with what we have in front of us today? While we are the sum of our knowledge, we almost need to let some of it go to let new stuff in, otherwise we get stuck trapped in yesterday’s thinking, and don’t embrace the ideas of today. Not everything that is new is good, and not everything that is old is bad, but we need to be adaptive to pick the best and discard the rest.

    For me I think I would be hard pressed going back to listening to music in anything where the driver was trapped in a cabinet. Movies are a whole different ball game.
    Rechearch into speaker design has been going on around the world by scientists and physisists, most if not all being true audiophoiles, for decades and proveable theories have evolved. Such established theory is set in concrete, the only things that have changed over time are cone and magnet materials making for more efficient drivers and cones that act more like well controlled pistons. I am not familiar with any rechearch on cabinet-less systems, the only mention I could find on the internet was this snippet on the site of "common Sence Audio"

    Open Baffle Cabinets
    Open Baffle cabinets are basically just flat pieces of wood supported by two 'wings' to hold them upright. Since cabinets exist mainly to generate bass, one has to ask 'why' these are used. They don't generate much bass and what they do produce rolls off below 63 cycles, even with the largest full-range speakers. With 6.5 or 8 inch speakers, this rolloff can occur below 100 hz. The situation can be helped somewhat by placing them close to rear walls or corners.
    The answer lies because they have a 'different' sound to box type speakers. Because there is no damping material behind the speaker cone, the sound from the back of the speaker is free to reflect off rear walls and join the sound from the front of the speaker. This time delay gives a 'fat' sound that some people like for classical music. And some people just like this type of sound. Supplemented with a quality subwoofer, the missing bass can be replaced, but not as seamlessly as with bass reflex systems.
    Open Baffles give an unusual presentation. Initally, they can be quite interesting, but for many listeners they soon grow tiresome when you realize both what's missing and what's being (inaccurately) added. But they're extremely easy to build and we would encourage everyone to give them a try to see what all the fuss is about. They work best with the largest full-range speakers, which can generate more bass without an enclosed cabinet.

    I really would be grateful if you would give me links to further reading on this subject, in the meantime it is you who has spent the money for YOU to enjoy the results and I do hope that you listen to the music rather than the system, listening for "faults"
    Harry

  16. #75
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    I have found this website extremely fascinating Loudspeakers his work is referenced a lot by people in the know.
    Whilst the basic cabinet may be simpler on the surface, probably far more effort is actually required for proper design, than a regular cabinet.

    Yes any one can route or jigsaw a hole in a flat board, but to make it work properly requires a massive amount of math, and there is an absolute ton of setting up to be put into practice.
    When set up properly they can sound absolutely magic, but half do it and you would be better off sticking with a sealed or bass reflex cabinet.

    So unlike the advice you quoted I wouldn’t suggest people try it unless they are prepared to commit to it properly, or you will wind up with the acoustic issues they mention in spades, but that is not what a proper setup sounds like.

    Here’s a pic of the ball park I see the finished speakers looking like.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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