Thread: Japanese Planes Vs Western Planes????

I don't think of it as one against the other. I have both eastern and western tools, hamers, saws, chisels, planes, chalk/ink lines etc. They are all just more strings to your bow, I pick up the one I think will do the best job at the time on that particular piece of timber.

Originally Posted by Claw Hama

I don't think of it as one against the other. I have both eastern and western tools, hamers, saws, chisels, planes, chalk/ink lines etc. They are all just more strings to your bow, I pick up the one I think will do the best job at the time on that particular piece of timber.

Exactly. There's no better or worse - just different.

I think perhaps a good way to pose the question is who did better woodwork with their tools, Japanese or European craftsmen? I dare you to mount an argument either way

Originally Posted by BobL

One factor that is often forgotten when comparing tools from different cultures is how they are used. There is a difference between how traditional Japanese and Western Woodworkers use tools. Try using a Stanley #4 while sitting on the floor and you will quickly find out why Japanese planes and saws more effective in that working position. Depending of what is being cut and planed, it just so happens that Japanese planes and saws can also be effective when working in a standing position, but the reverse does not always apply.

I've been wondering about how compatible Eastern tools are with Western workholding methods. I don't yet own a decent woodworking bench, so do most of my sawing either on sawbenches, or on the floor. I do want to make a Western bench at some stage though, as I've no effective means of planing at the moment (with my Western planes).

I've got three Japanese saws at the moment (thanks Stu), and from what I can gather, the ryoba style cut best when the handle is pointed towards the floor. This means that you're working with gravity, not against it, and it tends to keep the saw straight in the cut. You really want to be behind, or underneath, the workpiece.

Doesn't this mean that, when work is clamped in a vice, it will be necessary to squat or lean over to get "underneath" the cut? Does anybody else use Japanese saws with Western workholding methods, and find this to be a problem?

Originally Posted by snafuspyramid

Doesn't this mean that, when work is clamped in a vice, it will be necessary to squat or lean over to get "underneath" the cut? Does anybody else use Japanese saws with Western workholding methods, and find this to be a problem?

Yes i have, and i don't like it......I only have one Japanese saw, a small "dovetail" saw if you like (can't remember the name) I have tried using it many times, but for dovetails, held in a vice, i am more accurate with my little pax gents saw. I'm pretty sure it is simply what i am used to-i saw my father using western saws when i was a kid, i started using western saws when i was old enough. Who knows how many times i have pushed a saw through a cut.....and then you try to change that and use a pull saw? Its like staring again, only harder because you have to ignore everything you already know.

Originally Posted by snafuspyramid

I've got three Japanese saws at the moment (thanks Stu), and from what I can gather, the ryoba style cut best when the handle is pointed towards the floor. This means that you're working with gravity, not against it, and it tends to keep the saw straight in the cut. You really want to be behind, or underneath, the workpiece.

Doesn't this mean that, when work is clamped in a vice, it will be necessary to squat or lean over to get "underneath" the cut? Does anybody else use Japanese saws with Western workholding methods, and find this to be a problem?

2 facts, not opinions here.

#1, I have 2 work benches. One big, heavy thing and another more portable model I can put in the car. Just. Using either bench I can use any saw I presently own, no problems. It's the Indian, not the arrow.

#2, At tool shows, the B&D Workmate (or cheap clone) is an often seen item at the saw maker's stands. Nothing is said one way or the other if you cut across or down because when it comes to technique, again it's the Indian and not the arrow. I will admit that before you figure out what works and what does not, cutting downwards seems to work best, just as it does when using a western handsaw to hack off lumps of dead tree.

It's practice, not much more than that. I will admit that some folks just can't manage to use both, sticking with a single type of saw (memories of the president of a saw making firm from here being completely unable to use my Wenzloff 14" rip backsaw, but then Mr. Mitsukawa making me look like an amateur with the same saw.) but if you can use both effectively, it's another arrow in the quiver for the Indian to use.

(Never understood folks who flat out disregard Western or Eastern tools based on mere reputation and hearsay. They all work, just a little differently, and having some of each allows you to do things you might not otherwise be able to do so easily.)

Stu.

Originally Posted by snafuspyramid

and from what I can gather, the ryoba style cut best when the handle is pointed towards the floor. This means that you're working with gravity, not against it, and it tends to keep the saw straight in the cut. You really want to be behind, or underneath, the workpiece.

I'm no expert but have used both Western and Japanese saws for many years. Using Japanese saws, when docking off or ripping a piece I prefer to have it on very low saw horses (about 200 mm high) and stand over it with my feet holding it steady. Against gravity with handle pointing up. When cutting joints I like to use the Western vise and hold the piece vertically for ripping and horizontally for crosscutting (or anywhere between), with handle usually horizontal or facing down.

Regards,
Gadge

Originally Posted by Gadge

I'm no expert but have used both Western and Japanese saws for many years. Using Japanese saws, when docking off or ripping a piece I prefer to have it on very low saw horses (about 200 mm high) and stand over it with my feet holding it steady. Against gravity with handle pointing up. When cutting joints I like to use the Western vise and hold the piece vertically for ripping and horizontally for crosscutting (or anywhere between), with handle usually horizontal or facing down.

Regards,
Gadge

That's interesting. I've seen a Japanese woodworker - Toshio Odate maybe? -ripping boards as you suggest, using his feet to brace the work on a very low saw horse. I will see if I can knock up something similar and try, the height of the traditional Western sawbenches I'm using is too high for that, but too low to comfortably stand.

I think that modern woodworking, although theoretically vaguely anti-consumerist, has fallen into the Lee Valley catalogue mode of thinking. We always feel compelled to think of tools as having "features", where a quick glance at the features of both products will tell us with is "better". But I'm not sure that it makes sense to compare the tools in this way. It's not a meaningful question to ask whether an apple is better than an orange. Nor is a sharp Japanese tool "better" or "worse" than a Western Bailey-style one. They can both achieve exactly the same result in roughly the same amount of time - I don't think anyone could tell the difference between a piece finished with a very sharp Japanese plane or a very sharp Western one. It's just a matter of which process you find more enjoyable or comfortable, which is entirely a matter of taste (which is why one's experience and training are evidently such an important factor for many).

However, there might be things you personally prefer about one type or the other. I like Western planes because they are available and I enjoy restoring them, and because I like the patina, craftsmanship and history of old pieces. I like Eastern saws because they are cheap and I find the action of using the large back muscles very intuitive, and because I've only had a good experience when acting upon Stu's recommendations - his are the only new tools I own. Excellent results (or rubbish results) could be had with either style. If I could get my hands on cheap Japanese planes I would most certainly give them a go; just as I intend to with Western saws.

Why not try both and let us know what you think?

I've used both Japanese and western saws successfully on many types of benches, from dovetails to ripping. I started using Japanese saws exclusively about 12 years ago after a seminar with Odate (previous experience was more than 40 years with western tools, power and hand). The Japanese provide a superior experience, faster (3 strokes per cut for dovetails 3/4" thick), lighter, love the "handles," and straighter (whether vertical or horizontal). This is for both hard and soft woods. Same decision with Japanese chisels and hammers.

Stu is right, it's mostly the indian; although the arrow counts, too, perhaps a lot after the indian is trained. I lucked out and started with Odate instruction, but I could have learned the same stuff from his book.

I use both styles of saws and frequently switch between the two, as I do with planes. Each has its strengths.

If you cut down with a pull saw you don't get sawdust covering up your cut line, same with pushing down with a push saw. I just clamp the wood on anything that is high enough to allow a comfortable and full downward pull stroke, like our outdoor table (no nicks in the table yet.. )

But, then, I'm very western and not comfortable working on the floor the traditional Japanese way as shown in the Odate book, where he pulls up on most cuts.

Hi, Stu -- what's the uradashi practice on those (assuming that mighty blade ever wears down)?

Thanks,
Becky

A couple of thoughts from recent posts.

I bought Odate's book about 20 years ago soon after discovering Japanese tools. I didn't have other input so just went with his recommendations. The first thing I did after reading the book was make a toolbox and a pair of saw horses as per his drawings. Since then I've worked on those low saw horses almost exclusively for ripping and docking. To me it always seemed a natural way to use Japanese saws but now I see that it's probably just that I started that way.

Snafuspyramid, Like you I love restoring planes. I like the wooden western planes and have both british (eg. Mathieson) and continental (eg. ECE Primus). I also have a reasonable collection of Japanese planes. All second hand, in fact, I have only ever bought one new Japanese plane and never a western one. With both types they have invariably had long and often hard lives with badly maintained blades and wide mouths. To get a wooden plane to really sing it's essential to have the mouth really narrow. I use wooden infills to do this. Once again as per Odate's instructions for the Kanna. I sometimes condition the Western plane soles in the same way as a kanna.

My conclusion is that I can get superb results from both types. In my opinion the Western planes are easier to learn to control. I've been practising for years with Japanese planes and although I can usually get nice flat surfaces, it's still a struggle.

Snafupyramid, I have enough kanna that I could probably spare one and so if you are interested, contact me offline and we'll see if I can get one to you.

Regards,
Gadge

Originally Posted by yojimbo

Hi, Stu -- what's the uradashi practice on those (assuming that mighty blade ever wears down)?

Thanks,
Becky

"fuyoh" translates as "not needed". So "Uradashifuyoh" means you don't need to tap out the back at all. Ever.

The slight curve (not hollow) in the back means you only ever touch the edge with sharpening gear, and so long as you work the bevel and simply kiss the back with your finest stone, the back should never grow big enough to need anything but a wry smile.

That's how they're designed to work, and if that back does go, find a grinder and grind the blade back from the bevel side. The steel is good to 550°C and no trouble to grind it.

(Steel was specifically chosen to be hard, tough enough to be a plane and still maintain reasonable grindability. The 'blue steel' of PM HSS I suppose.)

Now while Tsunesaburo says you cannot tap out the backs on HSS blades, I've seen a video where someone is actually tapping the back out on one of these blades. My conflict is this.

I know Mr. Uozumi of Tsunesaburo, and I know Mr. Ohira who made the video. Mr. Uozumi and Mr. Ohira are very good, close friends. One says "no tapping" the other says "here, I tap!". I don't know whether they're winding each other up (very likely) but it does tell me it's possible. When I get them both in the same room together (easy) I'll accost them both and find out what's going on.

Anyway, rambling.

Stu.

I love when you ramble.
And I got a language lesson into the bargain!
Thanks, Stu.
Becky