Thread: What kind of tool could be used to do this?

Originally Posted by Brobdingnagian

No doubt about it; when I start cutting joinery I will start a new thread.....

I will answer your question in a round about way. To start off with im making a pair to be stacked.
My design is not pure traditional reproduction, but it is in the spirit of the aesthetic and craft, using traditional methods and hand tools through out the process where possible. I will add to that though I will be using modern silicon bronze for most of the hardware as I intend to cast most of it. I know the Japanese viewed brass and bronze as "foreign materials" and did not use them much for hardware.The locks and lock plates are still a little bit of a mystery to me, as far as I know the are a filed leaf spring type mechanism which the key compresses freeing the latch to slide, and I would love to get my hands on a genuine one so I can make my own. All that being said, the casting do not have the detail that I want so there will be a lot of chasing and filing when the time comes.
Two of the other details that are not quite traditional are the wood (sheoak) and other is that it is double sided as in drawer can be opened from either side with a closed lock being the drawer stop.
I also may have my terminology off a little I said sendai tansu but I might be better off describing it; it is frame and panel construction chest of drawers 1100mm long by 600 high by 500 deep for storing clothing.
I would love to see photos of the restoration projects, as the detailed construction of the frame and panel tansu still hold some mysteries that I have only been able to guess at in particular the runner panels and the sides because I never seen one in the flesh, or photos/technical drawings of its typical construction.
-Josh

If you like i can take a few photos of the mechanisms in the locks and draw up some clear diagrams over the next few days, its really a very simple mechanism, but there's a few different types. If you give me till about mid week next week i can also probably add a few photos and scans of the usual frame construction. Also, it might interest you to know that whilst they're incredibly rare, double sided chests were made in japan during the edo and meiji periods, with the vast majority being choba tansu/shop or merchants chests My boss has a fantastic one that he's in the process of restoring.
Also, tansu don't really have runners unless we're talking about the ones with sliding doors, in which case there is a shallow channel along the bottom of the tansu door frame, and a deeper channel carved into the top, the bottom essentially just guides the door, whilst the top channel's depth allows it to both guide the door and allows the doors to be removed if they're lifted up and then pulled out.
Drawers on the other hand simply run along the frame, and generally they're built essentially just as a box in box construction. In the case of specialised choba tansu and accountants chests, there are also very often secret compartments and shorter drawers here and there to hold a 'secret' cash box behind it. Though usually with an isho tansu (chest on chest) if there is going to be a secret compartment it will be hidden in the bottom of the chest underneath one or two lift out panels.

Originally Posted by fudo133

If you like i can take a few photos of the mechanisms in the locks and draw up some clear diagrams over the next few days, its really a very simple mechanism, but there's a few different types. If you give me till about mid week next week i can also probably add a few photos and scans of the usual frame construction.

That would be absolutely fantastic.

Originally Posted by fudo133

Also, it might interest you to know that whilst they're incredibly rare, double sided chests were made in japan during the edo and meiji periods My boss has a fantastic one that he's in the process of restoring.

[/QUOTE]

really???? photos would be amazing.....

You have me quite exited!

Originally Posted by fudo133

Drawers on the other hand simply run along the frame, and generally they're built essentially just as a box in box construction. In the case of specialised choba tansu and accountants chests, there are also very often secret compartments and shorter drawers here and there to hold a 'secret' cash box behind it. Though usually with an isho tansu (chest on chest) if there is going to be a secret compartment it will be hidden in the bottom of the chest underneath one or two lift out panels.

It is the drawer runners and kickers that I am thinking about, from the photos that I have seen, the "drawer box" is always enclosed on all 5 sides. And i was interested in the way the a typical tansu would be made.
I'm not a professional joiner, most of what I know has been through reading and doing, I have no traditional training to back me up here so a simple well known construction technique maybe quite novel to me.

I will do a couple of drawings to illustrate the detail that has alluded me.

I will post latter tonight... but right now I have a casting to be knocked out..

-Josh

This is the area that is a little ambiguous to me red, green and yellow

Here are some shots of one of my own isho tansus that i'm in the process of restoring on and off when i have the time, its essentially pretty good structurally, save for the bottoms of some of the draw's that just need some more nails and glueing to make sure they don't come apart.

SAM_0539.jpg
I'm not too sure of where about's this one came from originally since it doesnt have any clear regional stylistic features, in any case, its a relatively rough quality mid meiji era chest. High quality chests will usually have the insides of their frames sanded to an almost glass like dead smooth finish, though you see this more often in taisho era chests and exceptionally high quality 18th and 19th century chests rather than your typical examples.

SAM_0525.jpgSAM_0527.jpgSAM_0528.jpg

Here are some shots of the interior of the case, showing the fairly roughly finished sides. The back being made from multiple boards and having spaces and gaps like that isn't too uncommon, as constructing the backs of all but the smallest chests from multiple pieces is the norm, and over a good 100 years of so of constant humidity and temperature changes the wood expands and contracts a lot. The drawers slide along the top of each 'shelf' rather than sliding on runners of any type (as pointed out in the second pic from the left), the sections that run along the sides of the case in the 3rd pic are simply there to help guide the drawer and to keep it from moving around too much.

Drawer construction is also usually fairly straightforward and basic in most chests, in my isho tansu, the drawers are simply made by butting most of the pieces up against one another and then securing them using bamboo pegs, the partial exception to this being the drawer faces which have a recessed section on each side for the sides of the drawer to slot into, before being secured using bamboo pegs, the bottoms of the drawers are made from multiple pieces of wood, once more secured using bamboo pegs.
SAM_0532.jpgSAM_0529.jpgSAM_0530.jpgSAM_0531.jpg

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The last set (for now) that i think could be useful to you are a few shots of the interior of my own funa dansu, which was cobbled together from another smaller chest that would have had a lift out door or a locking bar at some point in its life, but which nonetheless has different drawer construction that you'll usually find in better quality chests. It also needs a bit more tlc and finish restoration before it can really be shown off properly
SAM_0533.jpgSAM_0534.jpgSAM_0537.jpgSAM_0536.jpgSAM_0535.jpgSAM_0538.jpg

Originally Posted by Brobdingnagian

This is the area that is a little ambiguous to me red, green and yellow

If i'm looking at this properly, the green and the red are actually part of the same piece of wood, and the yellow is part of the outer case, as in traditional japanese tansu, unless a veneer has been used, the outer case and the interior sides are all made from the same piece of wood
Also, on chests with these slatted features Japanese Rare Antique Karuma Tansu (Wheeled Chest).
the slats are completely decorative, and basically just sit in grooves cut out of the frame to accommodate them, the interior sides of the tansu case are actually just made from long pieces of timber that sit behind the slats and are nailed on

Damien,
First off thank you for the photos, It is very nice to be able to see the bones of these beautiful chests, It is a view that one does not often get to see and each one gives another insight.

With your isho tansu I have couple of questions. I presume the back is nailed on? Is the back housed in a rebate? Is the base of the carcase as thick as it looks or is there a frame there to stiffen it? The sides at the front are thicker than than the rest of the side, is there any additional joinery there? hmm.. actually I think i understand the joinery there, I'm guessing the top and bottom of the chest are joined to the sides by large box joints? The vertical divider for the drawer on the bottom chest is that thicker at the front like the sides? What clues if any can you see about the way the "shelf" is joined to the sides is it a dado, sliding dovetail, mortised?

Originally Posted by fudo133

If i'm looking at this properly, the green and the red are actually part of the same piece of wood, and the yellow is part of the outer case, as in traditional japanese tansu, unless a veneer has been used, the outer case and the interior sides are all made from the same piece of wood
Also, on chests with these slatted features Japanese Rare Antique Karuma Tansu (Wheeled Chest).
the slats are completely decorative, and basically just sit in grooves cut out of the frame to accommodate them, the interior sides of the tansu case are actually just made from long pieces of timber that sit behind the slats and are nailed on

No the red, green ,yellow are all separate pieces. Yes the yellow is part of the outer case, and the blue being the drawers, A vaneer might be option. one of the problems I have already cut a lot of the timber so I'm fixed on a certain path up to a point. It maybe that these end up being more a homage rather than a reproduction.

Attached is most of what is already cut for two frames. advice on the top would be appreciated.

-Josh

Isn't this starting to go a bit off topic.

Quite possibly...

Originally Posted by Brobdingnagian

Damien,
First off thank you for the photos, It is very nice to be able to see the bones of these beautiful chests, It is a view that one does not often get to see and each one gives another insight.

With your isho tansu I have couple of questions. I presume the back is nailed on? Is the back housed in a rebate? Is the base of the carcase as thick as it looks or is there a frame there to stiffen it? The sides at the front are thicker than than the rest of the side, is there any additional joinery there? hmm.. actually I think i understand the joinery there, I'm guessing the top and bottom of the chest are joined to the sides by large box joints? The vertical divider for the drawer on the bottom chest is that thicker at the front like the sides? What clues if any can you see about the way the "shelf" is joined to the sides is it a dado, sliding dovetail, mortised?



No the red, green ,yellow are all separate pieces. Yes the yellow is part of the outer case, and the blue being the drawers, A vaneer might be option. one of the problems I have already cut a lot of the timber so I'm fixed on a certain path up to a point. It maybe that these end up being more a homage rather than a reproduction.

Attached is most of what is already cut for two frames. advice on the top would be appreciated.
-Josh

The back is indeed housed in a rebate at the bottom of each half of the chest, with bamboo pegs hammered horizontally through the back pieces and into the rebated sections of the frame to help hold them in place, however, at the top, there are bamboo pegs that are simply hammered down vertically into the back boards from the exterior of the top.

The top and sometimes the bottom and the sides join to one another with a fairly large box joint, essentially exactly the same as the one shown in the last photo of the smaller funa dansu. This joint is further strengthened by a metal plate that folds over the edge of the chest to protect the joint and the wood from the side handles when the chest is lifted up.
In the case of my chest, the top of the top chest and the top and bottom of the base chest are joined with box joints, however the bottom of the top chest has been attached much like the inner sections of the shelves-with a dado joint on each side, these however (like all the other joints on the front of the chest) are covered with iron plates to help strengthen them

The base sections of each half of the chest on the other hand are nowhere near as thick as they appear, the timber is about as thick as the top and sides of the chest are, and whilst you will sometimes see a lattice like frame underneath on high quality chobako funa dansu, usually on isho tansu, there's nothing but the bottom of the last drawer housing. This is typically what they generally look like (usually sans the signature, date and customer details) http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_WxoUP_Y9N1...uzuribako2.jpg

I'm not fantastic with the names of my joints, but i believe the front most sections of the 'shelves' are joined to the sides with rabbit dado joints, in any case, they look exactly like this http://www.americanfurnituredsgn.com/images/Shavin5.gif

Oftentimes in higher quality chests the shelves will be one thickness the whole way through and will be joined with a full dado, in the case of my chest, its a bit of a practical cost saving consideration because the shelf is made from several pieces of wood, with only the first (front section) being about 5cm wide and 2cm thick, and every piece after that being only about 1cm thick. I think part of the reason for that ties in to the sections for the lock plates needing to be stronger and more secure than the rest of the shelf.
the thinner sections of the shelf that come after the first thick bit are all about 1cm thick, and as such fit perfectly into the dado, with a piece of wood both above and below to help guide the drawer, and to help add extra security towards holding the shelf up
SAM_0528.jpg
Lastly, no, the vertical divider on the bottom half of the chest is not thicker at the front and then thinner further in, it continues at the same thickness the whole way through, its secured to the shelf above it and the base of the chest with a dado that runs the full depth of the chest, stopping about 1cm short of the back panels of the chest.

Originally Posted by Brobdingnagian

No the red, green ,yellow are all separate pieces. Yes the yellow is part of the outer case, and the blue being the drawers, A vaneer might be option. one of the problems I have already cut a lot of the timber so I'm fixed on a certain path up to a point. It maybe that these end up being more a homage rather than a reproduction.

Attached is most of what is already cut for two frames. advice on the top would be appreciated.

-Josh

I'll have to check at work how some of the sides of frame and panel tansu are attached, but the tops at least are very often fitted into a rebate joint. The rest of the chest looks pretty good as far as i can tell, the one minor criticism i'd make (if only for authenticity's sake, is that the triangular joints on the drawers are rarely seen in japanese tansu, and will more often show up in either cha dana, kazari dana or fine chinese woodwork, though having said that, there are exceptions, and triangular joints will occasionally show up here and there, such as in the mortice and tenons holding the axels in place on this kuruma tansu Japanese Antique Rare Keyaki Karuma Tansu

I saw the question in another place, and went to answer and it was locked????
A quick scan of the posts here, and the link to wiki seem to give me no scale.
How big is this thing.
How big is each of the metal panels that make up the front and the hinge plates?

My first thought is lots of work on a drill of some sort to remove the waste, and then go it it with a couple of jewellers saws, then needle files.
There are a selection of very good fret saw / jewellers saw frames ( made in Germany) for under $50.00 each from local Melbourne jeweller's supply houses. They are quite manageable up to a throat depth of 8 inches, and if my guess is right on the scale of that box, you won't need to use the largest and most cumbersome of the saws.
Use a HIGH QUALITY blade, like Vallorbe round back blades, and choose the correct blade for the thickness of metal.
Get yourself set up in the correct cutting position, and just slowly work your way through all the cutting.
Most problems with the use of a fret / jeweller's saw come with ill informed use, specifically....failure to get the right posture so you are holding muscles in an uncomfortable position, and getting them tired and loosing the flow of the saw cutting the metal.

Looking for a way to do this quickly and easily seems to me to go very much against the whole philosophy of the piece.
If I made it quick and easy...I couldn't walk past it knowing I was thinking that way whilst making it.
Much more satisfying would be to fondly remember the last cut, and knowing that I became quite proficient in the use of a fret saw over time spent on this project.

Regards,
Peter

Originally Posted by lightwood

I saw the question in another place, and went to answer and it was locked????
A quick scan of the posts here, and the link to wiki seem to give me no scale.
How big is this thing.
How big is each of the metal panels that make up the front and the hinge plates?

My first thought is lots of work on a drill of some sort to remove the waste, and then go it it with a couple of jewellers saws, then needle files.
There are a selection of very good fret saw / jewellers saw frames ( made in Germany) for under $50.00 each from local Melbourne jeweller's supply houses. They are quite manageable up to a throat depth of 8 inches, and if my guess is right on the scale of that box, you won't need to use the largest and most cumbersome of the saws.
Use a HIGH QUALITY blade, like Vallorbe round back blades, and choose the correct blade for the thickness of metal.
Get yourself set up in the correct cutting position, and just slowly work your way through all the cutting.
Most problems with the use of a fret / jeweller's saw come with ill informed use, specifically....failure to get the right posture so you are holding muscles in an uncomfortable position, and getting them tired and loosing the flow of the saw cutting the metal.

Looking for a way to do this quickly and easily seems to me to go very much against the whole philosophy of the piece.
If I made it quick and easy...I couldn't walk past it knowing I was thinking that way whilst making it.
Much more satisfying would be to fondly remember the last cut, and knowing that I became quite proficient in the use of a fret saw over time spent on this project.

Regards,
Peter

Thank you so much Peter
Truthfully, this is a project that i'd prefer to take nice and slow, since the chest i have in mind is on a slightly larger scale than the one in the picture anyway. I'd say the chest itself is probably close to about 45cm high by 40cm wide or so, the hinges are usually about 5 or 6 cm wide, so none of them should be out of the range of a decent sized fret or jewellers saw.
I'm curious, having never used one before personally, do you use a fret saw or a jewellers saw in a similar way to a coping saw as far as position is concerned, or do you work in a different way?

Damien