Thread: A Dial Test Indicator Comparison

Shedhappens, just to be clear, Annorak Bob said 'why would anyone buy a Chinese DTI'. I never asked any such question, I merely asked, "How about I start another thread with something like: ‘Why would anybody buy a 60 year old lathe’ or even better, ‘Why would anybody buy second hand tools?’ " That's not to say I would or wouldn't' but, the point is, I never have. And your calling me one eyed - the mind boggles. I really don't care where they are made, as long as Chinese are cheaper and they do the job that is what I will be buying. As for DTI or DI, all the same to me, I have both - Chinese of course.

Originally Posted by gngh

Shedhappens, just to be clear, Annorak Bob said 'why would anyone buy a Chinese DTI'. I never asked any such question, I merely asked, "How about I start another thread with something like: ‘Why would anybody buy a 60 year old lathe’ or even better, ‘Why would anybody buy second hand tools?’ " That's not to say I would or wouldn't' but, the point is, I never have. And your calling me one eyed - the mind boggles. I really don't care where they are made, as long as Chinese are cheaper and they do the job that is what I will be buying. As for DTI or DI, all the same to me, I have both - Chinese of course.

I wasn't talking about or even thinking about you, my "one eyed" comment was in regards to the person who did the DTI comparison that Bob had linked to.

You seem a touch......hmmm......self conscious

Clearly then, I must offer my apologies.

Interesting discussion, Why buy a Chinese DTI? The first reason I can think of is price...

When it come to expanding the discussion to include everything else, it's rapidly becoming the case that you almost can't buy anything BUT Chinese made goods...
I wonder what percentage of the products that Bunnings have on their shelves is manufactured in China. more than 75% i'd guess..

When it comes to Machine Tools, what percentage of the stuff that Hare and Forbes sell is Chinese?

Regards
Ray

Why are the Swiss so good at DTI? Because the best mechanical watches come from there. It is a byproduct of watchmaking. There is knowhow, tradition, skilled craftsmen, plenty of parts subcontractors, and even watchmaking machinery makers, concentrated is a small area about the size of Tasmania. In German, a DTI literally translates as "a measuring watch".

May there be more similarities between watches and DTI? For everyday purposes, a $30 plastic swatch can show the time just as well as a $300 Tissot or a $3k Rolex or a 100% handmade $100k JWC. But why is it then that not everybody walks around with the same $30 plastic watch? There is clearly more to it than just reading the current time and date? There is the pride of owning something well made (think of the circular slide ruler calculator in an aviator Breitling). There is individualism, wanting something different. There is prestige, too. Then there is the professional diver whose life may depend on his Panerai.... and the hobby diver that feels like a pro thanks to his Panerai

I have two Tesa DTI. That is who I am. I like to spend a little more for something that is likely to last longer. I derive pleasure from something well made. When I take a Tesa out of the box, my mindset is "now I am going to make something accurate". I would never use it on black steel. A little story: I used to own a Breitling watch for 25 years, which I did wear every day. It broke and I decided I cannot afford to have it fixed, so put it on ebay not too long ago. It sold for 2/3 the money I paid for it 25 years ago. Go figure, what I thought to be a writeoff turned out to be the cheapest watch I had ever owned, cheasper than a swatch that breaks within 6 months. Try to sell a used Chinese DTI in 20 years. Chris

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

Why are the Swiss so good at DTI? Because the best mechanical watches come from there. It is a byproduct of watchmaking. There is knowhow, tradition, skilled craftsmen, plenty of parts subcontractors, and even watchmaking machinery makers, concentrated is a small area about the size of Tasmania. In German, a DTI literally translates as "a measuring watch".

May there be more similarities between watches and DTI? For everyday purposes, a $30 plastic swatch can show the time just as well as a $300 Tissot or a $3k Rolex or a 100% handmade $100k JWC. But why is it then that not everybody walks around with the same $30 plastic watch? There is clearly more to it than just reading the current time and date? There is the pride of owning something well made (think of the circular slide ruler calculator in an aviator Breitling). There is individualism, wanting something different. There is prestige, too. Then there is the professional diver whose life may depend on his Panerai.... and the hobby diver that feels like a pro thanks to his Panerai

I have two Tesa DTI. That is who I am. I like to spend a little more for something that is likely to last longer. I derive pleasure from something well made. When I take a Tesa out of the box, my mindset is "now I am going to make something accurate". I would never use it on black steel. A little story: I used to own a Breitling watch for 25 years, which I did wear every day. It broke and I decided I cannot afford to have it fixed, so put it on ebay not too long ago. It sold for 2/3 the money I paid for it 25 years ago. Go figure, what I thought to be a writeoff turned out to be the cheapest watch I had ever owned, cheasper than a swatch that breaks within 6 months. Try to sell a used Chinese DTI in 20 years. Chris

Thank you Chris.

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

Why are the Swiss so good at DTI? Because the best mechanical watches come from there. It is a byproduct of watchmaking. There is knowhow, tradition, skilled craftsmen, plenty of parts subcontractors, and even watchmaking machinery makers, concentrated is a small area about the size of Tasmania. In German, a DTI literally translates as "a measuring watch".

May there be more similarities between watches and DTI? For everyday purposes, a $30 plastic swatch can show the time just as well as a $300 Tissot or a $3k Rolex or a 100% handmade $100k JWC. But why is it then that not everybody walks around with the same $30 plastic watch? There is clearly more to it than just reading the current time and date? There is the pride of owning something well made (think of the circular slide ruler calculator in an aviator Breitling). There is individualism, wanting something different. There is prestige, too. Then there is the professional diver whose life may depend on his Panerai.... and the hobby diver that feels like a pro thanks to his Panerai

I have two Tesa DTI. That is who I am. I like to spend a little more for something that is likely to last longer. I derive pleasure from something well made. When I take a Tesa out of the box, my mindset is "now I am going to make something accurate". I would never use it on black steel. A little story: I used to own a Breitling watch for 25 years, which I did wear every day. It broke and I decided I cannot afford to have it fixed, so put it on ebay not too long ago. It sold for 2/3 the money I paid for it 25 years ago. Go figure, what I thought to be a writeoff turned out to be the cheapest watch I had ever owned, cheasper than a swatch that breaks within 6 months. Try to sell a used Chinese DTI in 20 years. Chris

great to read. love it.
i for one will not buy chinese made tools whenever possible .let alone me buying the measuring instrument . i learn my lesson when i brought a $15 digital caliper from Aldi . guess what ? it does not work correctly after a week .

Peter

I've heard that it takes something like 10,000 hours to be able to master a skill. As an amateur, my time is precious. I hold the view that whenever I do something that requires a skill that needs practice to master and I am still accumulating hours (such as using metal working machinery) I need all the help I can get. This includes equipment – I will always get the best I can afford. Most of my measuring equipment has been bought secondhand, but good brands that I know are robust and will last (and usually for the price of new Chinese).

I bought a Chinese protractor once. Quite simply it is a piece of junk. While there is some good Chinese gear out there, the cheaper stuff requires too much time to bring to an acceptable condition. It may be all that some people can afford – I won't hold that against anyone, but I pity those who believe that there is nothing better out there or do not aspire to one day using something whose reputation precedes it.


Michael

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

I would never use it on black steel.

Which is exactly why you need a cheapy.
I'm not holding the cheap ones up to be state of the art, they certainly aren't, but given the minimal expense they are handy to have around. They certainly wont last as long as a jewel bearing one. But I doubt for most of us that would be a problem?

Most of us are old enough to know that the Japanese cant make good cars. Hong Kong only makes cheap knock off toys and Taiwan makes crappy machine tools.

How many people that are poo pooing the cheap DTIs have used one?
My test would seem to say they are pretty damn close.(thought I think there is an error in one of my figures)

Stuart

I am like Chris, i like owning nice tools, just to take a well made tool out of the box and too look at the finish makes me think "the guys that made this were proud of what they did".
As for price, the most expensive indicator i own is, well ok a Mahr Millimess. Not the best start there. But the second most expensive one i have bought was my first 0-10mm x .01 Chinese DI. I own Mity's, Baty's, Kafer's, Mahr's, Hahn & Kolb's.....and all cost me less than that first DI. Most are second hand but some were bought brand new. You just have to be patient and keep looking.

Cheers,
Ew

Originally Posted by Stustoys

Which is exactly why you need a cheapy.
I'm not holding the cheap ones up to be state of the art, they certainly aren't, but given the minimal expense they are handy to have around. They certainly wont last as long as a jewel bearing one. But I doubt for most of us that would be a problem?

Most of us are old enough to know that the Japanese cant make good cars. Hong Kong only makes cheap knock off toys and Taiwan makes crappy machine tools.

How many people that are poo pooing the cheap DTIs have used one?
My test would seem to say they are pretty damn close.(thought I think there is an error in one of my figures)

Stuart

I haven't used one Stu and I doubt that I ever will. I am happy enough with my 30 year old Mitutoyo DTIs. Should one of them let go I'd probably replace with another 30 year old.

That said, I do have one Chinese machine in the shed, the 300 dollar bandsaw. Excluding one mill which does have an Australian history, and the saw, all my machines are proudly Australian and with the new accessories I have purchased over the years for some of those machines, I'd like to think I've contributed in some small way to that manufacturer's survival.

BT

Originally Posted by Anorak Bob

I haven't used one Stu and I doubt that I ever will.

Might have to send you one, you might be impressed
No I have something else in mind for you, its just taking longer than I thought.

Originally Posted by Anorak Bob

I'd like to think I've contributed in some small way to that manufacturer's survival.

Now that is a whole nuther thread.

Stuart

Originally Posted by Anorak Bob

I haven't used one Stu and I doubt that I ever will. I am happy enough with my 30 year old Mitutoyo DTIs. Should one of them let go I'd probably replace with another 30 year old.

That said, I do have one Chinese machine in the shed, the 300 dollar bandsaw. Excluding one mill which does have an Australian history, and the saw, all my machines are proudly Australian and with the new accessories I have purchased over the years for some of those machines, I'd like to think I've contributed in some small way to that manufacturer's survival.

BT

the new accessories I have purchased over the years for some of those machines

How many years? That seems to me to be part of this "discussion". Some members have been building up their collections of machinery and tools over a long period of time. Stands to reason a lot of good buys have come their way over time. I have wanted a metal lathe for about 30 years and could never afford one or any other machinery bigger than a drill press. A couple of years ago I got hold of a lathe at an affordable price ($200) Now I have another one that is vastly better for only $850. I can now afford to spend a bit more money on these sort of things.

I am getting on a bit (there is a jumping cake at the top of the page) and I suffer from an incurable lung condition that is currently stable but no one knows what the future holds. I want to make use of my equipment now, not in 10 or 15 years. Last Xmas I bought a lot of tooling from CTC at only a fraction of the cost locally. This is all Chinese and included my first DTI. The cost was neglible so what the heck. I will eventually buy a better one but in the mean time I have one to use, as it is impossible to operate a mill (Chinese as well) without one.

Chris

May there be more similarities between watches and DTI? For everyday purposes, a $30 plastic swatch can show the time just as well as a $300 Tissot or a $3k Rolex or a 100% handmade $100k JWC. But why is it then that not everybody walks around with the same $30 plastic watch? There is clearly more to it than just reading the current time and date? There is the pride of owning something well made (think of the circular slide ruler calculator in an aviator Breitling). There is individualism, wanting something different. There is prestige, too. Then there is the professional diver whose life may depend on his Panerai.... and the hobby diver that feels like a pro thanks to his Panerai

Very well put. I agree with you. I currently wear a Pulsar digital that cost me $95 on the day after my daughter was born. I bought her mother a watch on the day then decided I wanted one too lol. That was April 82. It no longer has sound and the buttons are hard to press but it has lived thru everything I have lived thru, nearly every day of that time and is still reliable.

Try to sell a used Chinese DTI in 20 years. Chris

That is a relevant point it is true, but for me I am not buying my equipment to sell in 20 years. I expect my family will be the ones selling this stuff and I hope they realise (and I am sure they will) that my enjoyment was the reason for me owning them.

There are a lot of different points of view out there and they are all viable for the person making them. DTI's do seem to invoke a lot of different reactions.

Cheers all

Dean

I don't want to inflame the Chinese v Euro debate, but wanted to raise a couple of points. I've repaired about 20(?) indicators of various description over the past few years. Not enough to claim any expertise in the topic, but I've certainly seen the insides of a few, all either Euro or Japanese, though I've looked inside a few Chinese and Indian while changing backs etc.

Firstly, be aware that the reason some indicators are being sold is because they have a problem of some description. Sometimes the seller is honest about it, sometimes not. I have bought a number of clearly market faulty indicators of good pedigree and repaired them. They went on to become excellent indicators, but one Compac was not sold as such and required quite a lot of time to be put in to it to get it back to good working condition. As it transpired it was an extremely rare, very early model, Compac in near perfect condition, so I wasn't going to offer to send it back! Anyway, like any used purchase, with an indicator you take your chances.

Going back to the start and Long Island Indicator. I've spoken to René Meyer, the co-owner of LII, a number of times and he's a very nice guy. He was chuffed incidentally to see my early model Compac, as it was probably built by his father, George, who worked there for all his working life before emigrating to the US with his family. Apart from that connection, he looks at indicators from a servicing perspective. Most people on the other hand view things from a user's perspective. Given my "past life" was involved in the electronics servicing industry I can empathise with him completely in that regard. Compacs are just beautiful precision works of mechanical art to work on, the insides are just as finely finished as the areas seen by the customer. What you're buying is a Rolex of the indicator world. Do they measure any more accurately? Yes I believe so, they are a mechanical instrument and all gears etc in the chain are accurately cut to ensure accuracy. Can the same be said for a cheap Chinese indicator? Unlikely. Having said all that, please don't buy Compac indicators, I'd love to buy more of them at good prices!

Finally, there is absolutely nothing wrong about putting an indicator on a non-machined surface, and shock-proof indicators are designed specifically for that purpose. Instead of a direct mechanical connection between the plunger and the indicator hand, they work through a spring that will absorb the vibration and mechanical noise. That's also a point to keep in mind if that's what you're looking for on a machined part, the indicator will lag the plunger movement, and in fast responses the movement may not be seen at all. In other words with the different designs of indicator, know what you're buying, and "Shock-proof" is necessarily a better option.

Pete