Thread: Cabinet maker required

I don't know where you are in Melbourne but try Bill and Peter Jennings at "Kitchen Facelift Centre" Kitchen Facelift Centre - Home at Ely Court, East Keilor (near Keilor cemetery) 9336-1482.

No connection other than being very happy with the kitchen rejuvenation (new doors and bench-tops) they did for us some time ago. Came when promised and the job was completed in the time frame quoted

Kitchen reno work.

Most cabbies would prefer to fit a new kitchen to be honest.

There's a lot of reasons for this.

It's actually quicker to make and install a new kitchen - hence cheaper.

Reason is - all your gear is at your factory.... once you go out onsite (for reno work) you have to keep taking things back to the factory to mod them with your machines to fit.

This travel and time all costs.

Also when working with someone else's cabinet build you cannot guarantee that everything is to the millimeter accurate, so if someone else's cupboards are racked...(out of plumb square etc) then anything you make to fit as part of the reno (drawers for e.g) that have close tolerances with their sliding rails - won't work properly if the carcass of the cabinet gets wider or narrower top to bottom (or front to back).

If you make the carcass in your own shop - you can adjust things to your measurements in the factory - but once it's out on site (i.e. reno work) well every mm out means trips back n forth (i.e extra costs).

This means renos typically can cost more than double the cost of a new kitchen, and it's not value for $ for the client.

Most cabbies will run a mile from this kind of work coz the customers frequently not happy with the finalized result & it MAY end being something completely outside your control - (i.e a previous cabbies work) that's the root cause of the issue - but you end up wearing the blame for the cost and finish quality for someone else's work or mistakes.

If you build it to your own measurements and in your own workshop - your in control of all these factors.... in reno work out onsite your not in control and it can and does frequently end in tears for everyone involved.

A while back, I offered to help someone with cabbie work... They then went ahead without asking and tore out a metal laundry unit (using their jigsaw to cut it up in pieces to get it out) coz the bottom was all rusted...and I had to make a laundry cabinet to replace it... with the stainless double bowls trough unit, drainage and copper water plumbing, already in situ...

Normally you make a laundry cabinet... fit it over the drain pipe and a couple holes for the copper pipe spuds, pin it to the wall and the plumper connects everything up....

In this case.. I had to build it - disassemble it - and try to reassemble it in place without disturbing any of the plumbing or drainage or trough or tiling!

That makes it hard... its even harder when the owner assists and breaks his own tiles... (but blames you for it) - and kicks the new cabinet door off its hinges hinges with his steel capped boot (but blames you for it)...

You do learn from experiences like this..to try and avoid reno work on existing cabs...

Same guy wanted me to convert all his kitchen cabs to drawers, re-laminate all his cupboard tops etc etc.

In the end I begged off... and suggested he get someone else.

There was no way I could do what he wanted, within a cheap budget and not break his tiles etc - heck all his dishwasher, range hoods, wall ovens, etc were already in situ, and to work around these, while keeping the original carcass, was going to be a nightmare!

It really is easier & cheaper to tear out and start again...

Heck many cabbies these days sub out almost all of the work - everything comes flat packed & pre CNC cut & edged & CNC vinyl wrapped doors etc, they just assemble and install.

Not my cup of tea but thats the industry these days..

What are you going to do?...

Where are you going to find a old tradie, with time on his hands to burn, to mess around for weeks getting an old kitchen reno'd?.

Like I said - most guys have learned the hard way to avoid jobs like this...

Tear it out whack in a new one... watch the TV Block shows - that's what they do - rip it out and pay a tradie to put in a new one.

The worlds moved on...from old fashioned type of work.

If it all goes pear shaped and you end up in small claims - the arbitrator / judge guy isn't going to understand that you were limited in what you could do by the original carcass design construction and installation (plumbing, electrics, and appliances) and how it was all originally built & installed... all they will hear is that the clients not happy and your the worlds worst tradesman coz you couldn't perform a miracle and turn a sows ear into a silk purse for half the cost of a new kitchen.

I would strongly suggest either doing it yourself,

or

Ripping it all out and starting again...

In terms of adding value to your house, industry stats show that most houses replace their Kitchen about every 6 years nowadays.

The one I was asked to reno was 20 + years old yet still looked like new - the lady housekeeper was fastidious about keeping it pristine condition - it was an absolute credit to her BUT - I can't buy any of those laminates these days to match whats already there - or the tiles to match if one gets broken etc.

The Kitchen is now - 20 years older, than when their bro in law built and installed it for them originally, - she is now too old to get down onto her crook knees on the tiled floor to get right into the back of these 600 mm deep old cabinets to get at seldom used pots or pans for roasting the Christmas ham once a year etc!.

She really needs pot drawers on soft close runners, so that everything is easy to get to when your in your mod 50's and knees are crook etc.

So at the end of the day I see it as my job (as the cabbie) to help them "see" that a reno is a bad decision - it's short sighted- not a good use of capital, could end up 2 times the cost of a new kitchen, and may not work out well and could actually devalue their $1M + house.

They really need to bite the bullet and admit that their lovely Kitchen has served it's purpose, paid for itself many times over, and really it was time they pulled it out and put in a totally new one.

Ergonomically with a island bench and breakfast bar etc it was really well laid out - so no need to alter the design radically - that part was pretty good - just needed to be re-designed to take into account the age and physical capabilities of the housewife NOW using it... with Pot Drawers etc.

It's sometimes foolish to try and alter a kitchen after the fact, and retain or match the original finishes etc.

Fashions change - and materials too, its best to just face up to it and put in a new one!

If its past 6.5 years of age its already outdated and reducing the value of your home.

Many house wives do maintain lovely kitchens which are a real credit to them even 20 years later, (Assuming their kids didn't destroy them growing up) so often it s tough to them try and convince them they should rip it all out and start again.

Most of the appliances - they change with time and the old opening sizes don't match the replacement new appliances.

What if you reno your kitchen and 3 weeks later an appliance Karks it and you replace it but the replacement doesn't fit the newly reno-ed kitchen?

I hope you see where I am coming from...

Many of us (particularly those of us from an older generation - who value things for life due to our upbringing) have a hard time getting our heads around the whole modern Ikea disposable furniture thing, of toss it all out once every 6.5 or less years - myself included.

Sadly that's the way of our world now & the days of reno - ing old cabinets are fast drawing to an end.

You MIGHT find someone.... willing to take it on, but the odds are against you and the odds of it working out cheap and satisfactory and not ending in tears for all involved are slim at best.

Most cabbies get burnt once, and learn from it, some get burnt twice (the slow learners), but MOST vow and declare they won't get caught again...and run from reno work of this nature.

If there's a building down turn, and your desperate to keep your doors open, and pay your employees, you MIGHT fall for it - if you can't get new housing cabinet work...

That's just how cabbies tend to look at these things from experience and the school of hard knocks is all.

It's perfectly understandable what your asking.... a cabbie who's doing his job properly should likely talk you into a new kitchen - that would probably be the better option all round, in the long run.

Sorry for the "war and peace" length post... but it's an important (and expensive) topic if you get it wrong at the outset.

Obviously I'm on the other side of the country, so I have no vested interest "dog in this race", just trying to give you some insight, as too why it's tough to get cabbies to take on this type of reno work, sometimes.

No offense intended - just relaying experiences after 20 odd years in cabinets and joinery and furniture etc.

Not saying it can't be done, the question I suggest you ask yourself is "should it be done?".

I hope it all works out well for you in the end, whatever option you should finally choose.

Originally Posted by Excellent1970

Does anyone know of a cabinet maker who would be able to help me with my alteration, in the Melbourne area? Thanks.

TT, I know you are a frustrated novelist (or should that be "frustrating"?), but after all that verbage you didn't answer the (new) guy's question, which to my mind was a very simple one.

Certainly didn't need 3 screens of non-answer, did it?

Originally Posted by Big Shed

TT, I know you are a frustrated novelist (or should that be "frustrating"?), but after all that verbage you didn't answer the (new) guy's question, which to my mind was a very simple one.

Certainly didn't need 3 screens of non-answer, did it?

Welcome to the forum.

It would be interesting to see the before and after photos of the kitchen.

1970's kitchen

Short & sweet

1. This kitchens earned its keep & done it's time, it's at least approx 40 years old, when the "normal replacement" industry standard age is now down to only 6.5 years - it's well past time for a new Kitchen.

2. Probably, no cabbie in his right mind, will want to touch this job (for the reasons outlined).

3. Probably you'll waste a lot of $ if you do proceed with it.

4. Possibly you'll only devalue the property, if you attempt to Mod it further.

5. Possibly you'll end up in dispute / litigation with your contractor.

Someone has to tell it how it is - I attempted to elaborate on my reasons for this advice as diplomatically as possible.

Others mileage obviously vary's.

Best of luck with however it works out for you.

Your own post, already indicates other tradesmen have passed the opportunity up, & that should tell you something, (just as I have attempted to do diplomatically - with examples and reasoning) but as always, your free to ignore all and any advice & I wish you only the best of luck with it, whatever you decide and however you choose to proceed with it.

It sounds like a really bad idea to me.

As has been suggested, we have no pics to go, on only the data in the original post and the data to ME, suggests these cupboards are probably well and truly beyond their use bye date.

If I put up a post that I want someone to modify my 1970/71 HG Holden to take a modern 7.3 liter T/diesel intercooled engine, and 4wd running gear, coz the car hasn't been used for 30 years and is in really good nic (and it has to be a lot cheaper than buying a new car) - that doesn't mean it's a good idea or a sound investment.

Thats essentially what he have here going by the original post.

Cheers.

Sounds like my place, built mid 70's.
Need new cook top. Most will not fit - bench not deep enough.
Oven needs replacing. Cabinet not deep enough for new ovens. Opening will be wrong size.
Dishwasher - if it needs replacing there probably will not be space as bench is lower than currant standards.
Recently replaced fridge, needed to cut bottom off overhead cupboard.

If I had money and time I would replace kitchen and probably tiled floors as new carcass would have slightly larger footprint than existing.

Originally Posted by Handyjack

If I had money and time I would replace kitchen and probably tiled floors as new carcass would have slightly larger footprint than existing.

A decent cabbie could work around the tile layout one way or another if the cabs extend over the older footprint. Much more of a hassle if you are eliminating a return, island or something similar and end up with a patch of untiled floor exposed and can't match the old tiles.

Refering to the original posters query however, I think that you would be throwing good money after bad to try and make your existing cabs deeper and replace benching. Apart from the cost of benches, you are probably looking at replacing all of the tiled splashbacks in order to replace the benches, and if you want to move a five drawer cabinet in the layout, you may end up looking to new doors/drawer fronts etc, particulaly if the cabinets are hollow framed up from from small profile stock rather, rather than formed as interconnecting carcass boxes. The difference being that for framed up construction, the frames would be made up to be continuous for each run, and would need considerable 'cut and shut' style work to reposition the draw set in the run. At least as a carcass construction, the set of cabs that form the run can be seperated and rearranged while maintaining the overall run length.

Just my 1c worth.

Thanks everyone for your responses.
I have installed a new kitchen in my previous house. I actually installed it myself, including the tiling, cabinets, benchtop, exhaust, sink, baulk head etc. It was my first time but I eventually got through it. I may of come across as being unaware of anything in my first post, but I guess I kind of know how things are done in a new kitchen.
The reason I want to keep my 1970's kitchen is because it is unlike other 1970's kitchens I've seen. It was well ahead of it's time, something the Europeans would have done. Everyone comments on it. It is also like new, yes although it was built sometime back, it wasn't used, the Italians used the kitchen downstairs all the time. The appliances etc all were not used. St George in Sydney wanted to buy the appliances for their showroom.
The kitchen is big, which is why I don't want to start again and from my experience, it won't be as hard as some of you have mentioned it may be. I definitely want to keep it and don't want to spend thousands to put in a new kitchen when the one I have is perfect.

I know if I were passionate about cabinet making I would be happy to keep alive old (but new) cabinets and not just want to move on because it is all too hard.

We can fly to the moon so I wouldn't expect the alteration of a cabinet to be too difficult. I am happy to complete the benchtop, sink etc (I have already altered and fitted the dishwasher).

I just want someone who can help with the carcass.

By the way, I do appreciate everyone's input and time taken to respond. Thanks again, Jamie.

TT, no offence but I'm looking for positive answers to my original post. If you don't have anything to offer which is not going to help me through my project, then you are probably wasting your time. Sorry this is not meant to sound harsh.

I am going to go through the process of altering my kitchen, this is a fact, so I just want feedback around who can help.

Thanks for your interest though.
Jamie

No offense taken.
Knock yourself out and I wish you every possible success with it.
Hope you will put up some pics of the before and after shots - and details of what it ends up costing you.
Without seeing it - it's tough for anyone to give good advice.
Only you know what you have - what you want to end up with, and what your happy to pay to achieve that.
I wish you the very best of luck with it - however it should eventually turn out for you.

Cheers

Originally Posted by Excellent1970

TT, no offence but I'm looking for positive answers to my original post. If you don't have anything to offer which is not going to help me through my project, then you are probably wasting your time. Sorry this is not meant to sound harsh.

I am going to go through the process of altering my kitchen, this is a fact, so I just want feedback around who can help.

Thanks for your interest though.
Jamie

I've been watching this thread with great interest; wasn't going to comment as I can't help, however:

Searching for positive answers is very nice, but when you're getting the same "it's-too-hard/not-worth-it" response, both from tradies and members here (myself included) I think it's a pretty good indication.

As a cabinet- and furniture-maker, I can tell you that the only thing more painful than kitchens and built-in units is alterations to them, so make sure you're sitting down before you look at any quote.

Well that's my bit, I'm going back to my corner.

Best of luck with the project.

Thanks again for your replies.
Just to make this clearer, I have 12 lineal metres of cabinets and I am wanting to alter 1.5 metres of this, not all of the kitchen.
When I look at it it doesn't seem as hard as what some replies have suggested. I can understand why nobody wants to do it because it may take extra time for such a small job.
This is why I am going to do it myself with my furniture maker friend.
Jamie

Wow!...and Wow again, to put it politely.

Such a simple question, and such a complex stream of unrequested info that followed.

Excellent1970, feel free to PM me if you get stuck and need some input as i have done similar jobs in the past. Not sure if you ended up replying as to where in Melbs you are as i lost interest in filtering through the responses.

Craig.