Thread: which bowl gouge.?

Originally Posted by Tim the Timber Turner

.

However I always try to remove any torn grain as this takes heaps of sanding to remove.

Never met a turner that likes spending more time sanding than turning.

My 2 bobs worth.

Cheers

Tim

This is when I get the 40 grit out ...and Tim knows I'm not kidding 'cause he supplied me with it

Originally Posted by brendan stemp

This is when I get the 40 grit out ...and Tim knows I'm not kidding 'cause he supplied me with it

In some cases NOTHING works as well as a 40 or 60 grit gouge.

Originally Posted by brendan stemp

This is when I get the 40 grit out ...and Tim knows I'm not kidding 'cause he supplied me with it

Brendan, I'm thinking of expanding the range to include 16 & 24 grit.

Not for my own use of course.

I figure if you have a need for 40 grit to yourself, there must be others that need something a bit stronger

Do you think this is a good business move

Cheers

Tim

Originally Posted by Tim the Timber Turner

Brendan, I'm thinking of expanding the range to include 16 & 24 grit.

Not for my own use of course.

I figure if you have a need for 40 grit to yourself, there must be others that need something a bit stronger

Do you think this is a good business move

Cheers

Tim

First, I need to work out whether this is a serious question. Given it is, I think there wouldn't be many that would need such coarse/strong sandpaper. I needed it for some resin with yellow box work, in a hollow form, that was extremely hard on tools and difficult to work with. So, no would be my answer.

Originally Posted by Skew ChiDAMN!!

When considering value for money, P&N (unhandled) are up there.

The trick is to not buy on-line, but to go into the store and look over the tools yourself, paying particular attention to the flutes. Off-centre? Back on the shelf. Nasty ridges & scores the length of the flute? Back on the shelf.

Once you have a good one, then the first thing to do once it follows you home is to use a small, rounded slip-stone (or s/paper wrapped around a wooden form or...) and hone the inside of the flute until that sucker shines. Remember, it's the flute that is the cutting edge and if it's 'ragged' then the cutting edge will be too!

It sounds like a lot of work... and is... but the end result is worth it. They're made from damned good steel and the only real difference in use between my 8mm P&N gouge & my 8mm Thompson Kryo is time between sharpens. The Kryo lasts quite a bit longer, but cost a helluva lot more. So I only use it for finishing cuts now... the P&N is my main goto.

I had my first lessons from a well known Queensland woodturner who turned a lot of hard western Queensland timbers. He always went straight from the grinder to the lathe and did not mess around with any other "fuddy duddy" sharpening. So I have followed his actions and have done the same although my skews get a touch up with a stone.

Have I been missing out on something by not taking the intermediate step of sharpening again once off the grinder???

Originally Posted by Kidbee

Have I been missing out on something by not taking the intermediate step of sharpening again once off the grinder???

G'day Kidbee

Here is a simple answer.

Depends if you want to turn wood or play with your tools.

Of course in real life things are never that simple.

Straight off the grinder and back to the lathe, suits many turners (myself included), while others get enjoyment from the process of polishing and honing the cutting edge. Or as you eluded to, "fuddy duddy" sharpening.

Some will debate/discuss forever, the merits of their preferred sharpening system.

Others just want to turn wood and make things.

A production turner who lives near me only uses a slipstone to sharpen his tools.
Can you imagine how many rubs it takes to wear out a tool without it ever touching a grinder.

I met a farmer in northern Victoria who produced acceptable work with a farm built lathe and tools made from old gudgeon pins welded onto a piece of pipe. These were sharpened on the grinding disc in the shearing shed. No flash tool for him.

At the other extreme I used to give turning lessons to a retired builder who had massive workshop full of all the best machines, tools and timbers. His collection of wood planes alone would have been worth thousands.
I don't think he ever produced any work other than to make fancy display cabinets for his plane collection.

Most of us fit somewhere between these two extremes'.

There are no right or wrongs, just our own preferences.
Of course safety should always be paramount.

That's all folks

Cheers

Tim

Originally Posted by Kidbee

He always went straight from the grinder to the lathe and did not mess around with any other "fuddy duddy" sharpening. So I have followed his actions and have done the same although my skews get a touch up with a stone.

Have I been missing out on something by not taking the intermediate step of sharpening again once off the grinder???

I think you misunderstand me. The polishing of the flute is done once, before the tool is ever used. From then on it's sharpened and used as per usual... and I'm another "from the grinder to the lathe" type turner.


P&N's often have ridges or grooves down the length of the flute and when you sharpen the tool, it's the intersection of the flute & bevel that's the cutting edge, right? So if the flute has a groove, then when sharpened the cutting edge will have a 'nick' where that groove meets the bevel. Or a small 'bump' if the flute has a ridge.

Thus polishing the flute once to remove these gives you a good profile for the cutting edge for the life of the rest of the tool.

This applies to any gouge, of course, not just P&Ns. But P&N gouges are very prone to this [manufacturing] fault, which is probably why they are so cheap considering the quality of the steel. It really doesn't take that long to clean 'em up and I don't mind a bit of work if it saves me significant coin. (An equivalent Thompson costs over twice as much but doesn't give twice the performance!)

Polishing the flute on a gouge is the equivalent of flattening the back of a cabinet making chisel or a plane blade

Originally Posted by Skew ChiDAMN!!

I think you misunderstand me. The polishing of the flute is done once, before the tool is ever used. From then on it's sharpened and used as per usual... and I'm another "from the grinder to the lathe" type turner.


P&N's often have ridges or grooves down the length of the flute and when you sharpen the tool, it's the intersection of the flute & bevel that's the cutting edge, right? So if the flute has a groove, then when sharpened the cutting edge will have a 'nick' where that groove meets the bevel. Or a small 'bump' if the flute has a ridge.

Thus polishing the flute once to remove these gives you a good profile for the cutting edge for the life of the rest of the tool.

This applies to any gouge, of course, not just P&Ns. But P&N gouges are very prone to this [manufacturing] fault, which is probably why they are so cheap considering the quality of the steel. It really doesn't take that long to clean 'em up and I don't mind a bit of work if it saves me significant coin. (An equivalent Thompson costs over twice as much but doesn't give twice the performance!)

Yes, I did misunderstand you. I use P & N and have a new unused one, so will follow your advice and polish the flute and check out if it has any grooves.

Originally Posted by Kidbee

Have I been missing out on something by not taking the intermediate step of sharpening again once off the grinder???

Yes!!!!

That depends of course upon what you turn, wether you want to turn or sand! & on practicality - time vs money - if you happen to be a production/volume turner.

Fortunately I had the benefit of meeting and learning from many turners, from the roughest straight from the wheel types to one of the fuddy duddiest sharpening guru's in the wood turning world, and plenty of very good turners in between.

Simple one off tasks like honing flutes on bowl gouges, and more routine tasks like a light hone after the grinding wheel, well rewards the effort & time spent honing with a far better cut which often equates to missing one or even two, and perhaps all, steps/grades in sanding. Now if you choose to turn mongrel wood full of nasties like embeded sand, nails, wire etc or some of our Aussie well dried concrete like timbers, why bother to even touch the tool after the grinder? Keep the grinder spinning, don't even bother to turn the grinder off.

Despite popular thought the burr does not do the cutting on gouges & skews - the edge does. Different story for scrapers though.

Now take a quantum leap with honing tools for delicate turnings - no tool straight from a conventional 80g ALOX grinder will turn delicate or a 1mm thin finial with any real success. Hone suitable tools to a keeness similar to a razor and you will never touch that finial with sandpaper. Sanding on these items destroys the detail & often the item itself. Honed tools are a must.


To the original question – which gouge? Only one??

The gouge quality is linked to the above – if you are a “straight from the grinder” or a “no hone” turner then the benefits from the higher quality steels may not be all that much of a benefit to you. If you hone then the ASP2030, V10 etc steels will certainly benefit but may not be as radical as the blurb suggests. Quality manufactured M2 HSS is all that most turners will ever require. It holds a good edge for a satisfactory length of turning time and is not brittle. The harder the steel generally means it is relatively brittle when compared to M2 HSS – nasties usually take out good chunks of steel. Price was a sticking point but now the “newer” steels are becoming far more competitive.

I’ve been using Hamlet ASP2030 (spindle & skews) & Thompson (bowl, spindle & skews) plus P&N and a range of M2 HSS Sorby, Hamlet, Crown, Henry Taylor tools. Which is better? The tool you have got! Learn to sharpen it well and practice. I have preferences for certain tools in certain applications and they all don’t come from the same stable or even the same steel type.

Now a preference for “U”, “Vee”, Supa, Parabolic, Master flute shapes and “bottom feeder”, “Ellsworth”, “Irish” grinds – best of luck sorting that one out. Each has a benefit in a particular application and has often been proven through much trial and effort. Work out what you prefer to turn and see what the “successful” turners making similar items use. Chances are each will have a different preference. If you get a chance to try another turners tools / grinds have a go, never know they may actually be onto something, then again they may not.

two advantages of honing I like are the Sharp tool needs less force to perform a cut or roll a bead, and in a production environment honing a tool dare I say gives you a break away from the lathe which is beneficial for the mind! turning 4 to 7 balusters an hour takes alot of concentration and even though I'm leaning against a bench honing I'm having a "break" . don't get me wrong I enjoy turning!

Originally Posted by Tim the Timber Turner

My go-to bowl gouge for difficult timbers is always my 13mm Glaser gouge (mild fingernail grind) on the inside.

Tim - is that an original Glaser or a Glaser Hitec?

If one of the newer Hitecs, then I already have your opinion on that.

If an original, have you also had a chance to use one of the newer Hitecs and how do they compare?

The old 'Glasers' must be getting a bit rare now. I'd be sleeping with it under my pillow!

Neil, I know of 1 other 1/2" Glaser Bowl Gouge in the wild and seen it at work. My 1/4" version is safely tucked away.

I'll have to try Skew's tip with the polished flutes. Mine aren't too bad as I always hone both the flute and the edge but I might spend some dedicated time to doing it properly. Actually; I need to dedicate some time to actually doing some turning as it's been a few months since I span anything in anger...

I have my little lathe set up on a rolling table with the grinder on the opposite corner for easy sharpening. I do most of my turning straight off the grinder but when I do finish turning I have a 19mm thick MDF disc mounted on a faceplate that I use for honing. Give it a lick with polishing soap and it puts a beaut edge on anything; I hone all my knives on this wheel as well. On the face of the disc I glued some of that non-slip mesh stuff; I use it for finishing off the bottoms of bowls by jamming them between the disc and the tailstock; the friction holds the whole lot together tight enough to remove the chuck spigot off the bottom.

Next project is to have a disc I can mount behind behind the chuck...