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26th May 2015, 02:59 PM #1Novice
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Carba-tec Japanese saws. Are they any good?
Hi All
are the Cara-tec saws any good ?? value for money ? which brand to buy?
Regards
Tolmie
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26th May 2015 02:59 PM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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26th May 2015, 06:20 PM #2Retired
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The Z-saw range are excellent. I've used mine extensively. Very nicely made.
The absolute Best are Nakaya Eaks, sold by Tools From Japan: http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/...ndex&cPath=316 They are awesome... the blades are very fine, razor sharp and last for ages.
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26th May 2015, 06:35 PM #3Taking a break
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+1 for the Z saws
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26th May 2015, 10:23 PM #4SENIOR MEMBER
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+1 for toolsfromjapan too
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27th May 2015, 08:01 PM #5
+1 ToolsFromJapan for production saws. I buy all of mine from there now. Always get a few spare replacement blades when ordering. The additional postage for some spare blades is usually nil.
Consider the z-saw hardwood blade if you are working with a lot on our hardwoods. The standard J-saw tooth profile is optimised for their softwoods.
Stu could no doubt help if you wanted to head into hand-smithed saws, but that is another planet altogether.
Neil
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27th May 2015, 09:55 PM #6Member
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Love the Z-saws. They leave such a clean surface but also cut nice and quick I ripped about 1.5m in 50mm Jarrah with one of these saws...I probably won't be doing that too often though (oww).
Didn't know about the hardwood blade! Will get that with the next tools from Japan order
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28th May 2015, 04:31 AM #7GOLD MEMBER
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I like z and gyochuko's offerings. Or did. Lee Valley has a nice true rip tooth dozuki, but when I started doing a lot of hand dimensioning a couple of years ago, I noticed that I also got more demanding on the speed of sawing (vs. joinery cuts) and I eventually chipped teeth on every saw I have (including the expensive LV dozuki - expensive is relative, there are much more expensive saws).
I gave all of my saws to a friend and built a set of western saws from kits and that was the end of that. (the large saws are vintage saws, no other sensible way to go around here as inexpensive as good vintage saws are in the US)
Incidentally, I did also buy a common tool store saw (western style saw from stanley that's got the impulse hardened teeth and is 26 inches long). It's got a horrible feel - floppy and such - but you can break down stock crosscut with it extremely fast. It's impossible to file a tooth in standard format that will cut as fast, especially in thicker stuff....but...
... a couple of weeks ago, I built a new workbench and used the "break down" saw for all of the crosscuts in ash, and two of the teeth got snarled. It's no longer available locally. I think it was called "stanley sharp tooth" and is still available online, but for the number of crosscuts I made with it (maybe 200) buying another one for $25 to have a tooth bend again isn't that attractive when I have paid for saws in the rack where that won't happen.
None of the above applies for someone who can casually cut joinery. For the most part, I lost teeth in the above saws when I used them for something more than simple small joinery (e.g., cutting stock to length).
Never had much love for japanese saws to do coarse ripping, I've seen only one good one for hardwoods, and that was custom requested to be made by hand by Stan Covington. He had a beautiful rip saw made by a custom saw maker, and made to rip medium hardwoods. It was everything that every other japanese saw I've seen wasn't - it was robust, tough and not grabby. A beautiful saw, but to get another one made for me would've been close to a grand.
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28th May 2015, 05:06 AM #8Retired
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DW, I use my huge 380mm Ryoba. It's a weapon. A veritable chainsaw. I feel dangerous wielding it!
Two handed with timber held down, I chop through gum logs cross and rip with glee. The teeth are big and each side set for each action. The dust really pours out.
Last week I cut down a bit of red gum stump into half. It was too big for the Laguna SUV throat. It sure did raise up a sweat and had the old ticker thumping, but it ripped that hard-as-steel timber exceptionally well.
It was bought from Tools From Japan.
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28th May 2015, 11:52 AM #9
Maybe that is because you didn't have a dedicated Japanese rip saw like this one.
It has a 39in/1m long blade and was made specifically to breakdown stock. They stopped making them when portable power tools and small workshop woodworking machinery became readily available. It is quite a workout using a big saw like this and the Japanese quickly adopted power equipment when that became available.
I only use mine if I can't get the stock into the workshop or I don't have a power cord long enough to reach the stock or the petrol chainsaw will be too loud near the neighbours.
I have and use a wide variety of both Japanese and western hand saws (from a western 6' crosscut saw down to J-micro blades) and each has its advantages, but more often that not I'm using one of the J-saws.
The topic from Tolmie was J-saws, but to diverge just a little, if you can't find a suitable blade for coarse ripping consider making up your own with a bow-saw frame (an easy project) and a length of bandsaw blade that can be purchased from a local saw works. Good ones carry a wide variety of sizes and tooth profiles and they will cut to any length for you. The bi-metal ones are good for resharpening. For very long rips fit the blade at 90deg to the frame. You can insert the blade to pull or push, but there isn't much difference with a bow saw.
Neil
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28th May 2015, 12:27 PM #10GOLD MEMBER
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I can't see the attachment. I have a video of ripping with Stanley's fabulous ripsaw, it's literally the second or third rip I did with it, so I'm not so competent.
I also, in the same session, ripped with a western saw. Our objective was a speed test, and stanley generously had a purpose built saw made (which he loves) and sent it to the states for a few of us to try.
I do have a complement of western carpenters saws that cover pretty much all of the territory (from 3 1/2 point up) i need, from ripping to resawing.
I had made the assertion on another forum that there were no modern inexpensive japanese saws that could keep up with a western saw that costs $35 or so over here (you sharpen it for that price, of course, which is no problem). I think that's still true, I had inexpensive ryobas up to 300mm but gave them to my friend when I cast off all of my japanese saws), none of those were set up right for hardwoods.
What I did learn from stanley's saw was that all of the bitiness and jumpiness that was present in mass produced saws, and the choice of either floppy or brittle, that was completely completely missing from the custom saw he had made. That saw was extra heavy, had a very nice scarf joint at the tang and was tempered brown for toughness and gave no indication that you could break it even if you tried. But it would've been about $800, so a trial was enough for me.
Pardon the pajama pants, that's what I often wear in the shop in the winter because they are never too tight. I was trying a few different cut angles just to see how the saw felt. I can't communicate just how solid this saw was, if I had good technique and could saw straight with it, it was capable of more speed. I had to finish with a western saw just because I couldn't keep a line with it yet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eof0u9k5KQ8
And a western saw for speed comparison.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAK1dA69ayM
I thought about making a frame saw, but I'd rather do that as a two man tool than one (plus, a properly sharpened carpenter's saw resaws very well).
I'll check back later to see if I can see your attachment. Hopefully, I can.
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28th May 2015, 04:21 PM #11
OK, I'm not sure what happened there. I could see the image in preview. Anyway, I've done it again and it appears to be there for me.
Neil
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28th May 2015, 09:26 PM #12Member
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Teeth breaking/bending = poor technique. Spped is achived not by higher pressure, but by better technique
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28th May 2015, 10:28 PM #13GOLD MEMBER
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28th May 2015, 10:30 PM #14GOLD MEMBER
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Thanks for fixing the attachment. I figured it might be a log saw, but couldn't tell if you were talking about a breakdown saw for rip or crosscut. Have you seen saws of that style for rip, or just something bigger like maebiki?
A couple of ebay sellers have been selling maebiki over here, but I wonder how many of them actually get used.
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28th May 2015, 10:44 PM #15GOLD MEMBER
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I would say it a different way. There is a limit to how much speed you can get out of some of the tools, and they don't tolerate pressure whereas with a western saw you can work with a wider range of pressure and speed.
There'd be no similar limit with the rip saw that stanley sent me, though, it is tough (it was made for the task, and it's interesting how similar the temper and temperament of the saw is compared to a western saw - it's only a touch harder).
I had used japanese saws for about 5 years with no broken teeth before I started breaking teeth on them. The difference was, I guess, I was trying to get the same amount of speed out of them for other-than-joinery work on hardwoods - that I can get out of western saws. There are some things common here that you have to be delicate with hard toothed saws on (white oak, etc), and others not so much (cherry, pine, walnut). Before I started breaking the teeth, I used the saws only for joinery. I think if I went back to the manufacturer and told them what I was cutting, they'd probably tell me not to cut it with the saws I used - but we don't have the luck in the west, we get what's listed unless we're willing to pay a lot - which doesn't make quite as much sense with western saws as inexpensive as they are here.
I shouldn't say I broke teeth on every saw, because it didn't happen on the large ryobas I had, but those were slower to rip with than a western handsaw and less convenient for anything too large to fit in the vise.
I would guess that the impulse hardened tooth western saw that I bent a tooth on was due to hitting a staple or a knot or something. I don't generally bind a saw in a cut or put lateral pressure on teeth. Same thing, never has happened with a spring temper western saw.
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