Thread: Fletty's new shed WIP ....or is it a retrospective??

Recently during a house reno next door a plumber fired up his concrete cutter. Myself and some tradies working at my place wore ear defenders the whole time it was working due to the exhaust being so loud. I am used to being around angry two strokes at race tracks but this thing was in another category altogether. On a building site it might have been annoying, in our quite neighbourhood it was intrusive in the extreme meaning of the word. The lack of standards to take measurements of this nature make it meaningless to compare readings IMHO and I always regard readings taken with phone apps as fairly useless having seen how more than has been wildly inaccurate.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

Recently during a house reno next door a plumber fired up his concrete cutter. Myself and some tradies working at my place wore ear defenders the whole time it was working due to the exhaust being so loud. I am used to being around angry two strokes at race tracks but this thing was in another category altogether. On a building site it might have been annoying, in our quite neighbourhood it was intrusive in the extreme meaning of the word. The lack of standards to take measurements of this nature make it meaningless to compare readings IMHO and I always regard readings taken with phone apps as fairly useless having seen how more than has been wildly inaccurate.

The WA EPA regs (also similar in most states) very clearly state how measurements should be taken and it's not that difficult if the recommendations are followed. A friend of mine used to be an EPA noise monitor and used to carry a set of SOTA (state of the art) noise measuring gear with him for spot checks. The most common thing people do incorrectly is stand next to the SPL meter. The measurement should be done with the person standing well away from the meter.

In terms of mobile phone apps it depends on the phone and the App.
Have a read of this Noise monitoring using smart phone Apps

Paul,
Chainsaws are MUCH louder than 90 dB.
My little 70cc 441 is 104dBA at the operators ear and the 880 was 108 dBA and since the muffler mod is now ~112dBA - all measurements for chainsaws are done with the operator using it and are performed at the operators ear.
I fired it up and flat bottomed a couple os logs that were too big for the for BSM for the first time today in almost a year.
Man that thing is loud - I use earplugs and ear muffs using that one.

The loudest machine we had at the mens shed was a thicknesser that output 116 dBA at 1m - fortunately we got rid of it.

Didn't know you could get a phone app to measure noise

Dave TTC
Turning Wood Into Art

So the shed is not so noisy and less sub micron dust is present but are you back to work?
will you be up and running in time for the GTG?

Originally Posted by Pac man

So the shed is not so noisy and less sub micron dust is present but are you back to work?
will you be up and running in time for the GTG?

Yes, I will be ready for the 13th (yes, I will be ready, yes I will be ready, yes, I will be ready .... says he trying to convince himself!)
My 'bits' from Clearvueoz were actually delivered today and Chris turned up with some VERY flexible 150mm ducting yesterday so I might even have the DC system (version 3) up and running on the day?
Ive had today 'off', a lovely day with grandchildren and a kayak but back in harness tomorrow.
All will come good for the day!

fletty

Originally Posted by BobL

The WA EPA regs (also similar in most states) very clearly state how measurements should be taken and it's not that difficult if the recommendations are followed. A friend of mine used to be an EPA noise monitor and used to carry a set of SOTA (state of the art) noise measuring gear with him for spot checks. The most common thing people do incorrectly is stand next to the SPL meter. The measurement should be done with the person standing well away from the meter.

In terms of mobile phone apps it depends on the phone and the App.
Have a read of this Noise monitoring using smart phone Apps

Not everyone carries specialty equipment so I fail to see how that helps this conversation Bob.

Not everyone has equipment that can data log if they can't read the instrument during operation

Every time someone mentioned to me that according to their phone the level was such and such I used to agree politely and move the conversation on. I had a few instances of being told a level and just by listening on the phone it was clearly wrong using as a comparison a level I was familiar with. The problem with phone apps is comparing them for accuracy against a instrument of known standard as the reason for using it is because you don't have such a instrument.

I wonder if we could do this, can as many people as possible who use a mobile phone and is attending the sharpening GTG down load an app and we run a comparison test during the day. It doesn't matter if some are the same because different phones and the same app might yield different results. I am presuming they are free?????? I have only ever ever downloaded a few free apps for a mobile phone so I don't know how this stuff works generally and I don't use a mobile phone these days as a rule.

Ill be in that. I like that idea

Dave TTC
Turning Wood Into Art

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

Not everyone carries specialty equipment so I fail to see how that helps this conversation Bob

My aim was not to highlight the use of special equipment but that (simple) consistent measurement procedures can help us make better comparable measurements.
That's why I mentioned not standing near the meter.
I have even written an FAQ about noise measurements - it's in the Practical aspects sticky on the Dust Forum

Not everyone has equipment that can data log if they can't read the instrument during operation

The better mobile phone apps will average the data for as long as the app is left running. This makes the measurement protocol as simple as; start and walk away from the mobile and go back to it when you like. The effect of you being there for the first and last 3-4 seconds is washed out if a 5 minute measurement interval is used.

Every time someone mentioned to me that according to their phone the level was such and such I used to agree politely and move the conversation on. I had a few instances of being told a level and just by listening on the phone it was clearly wrong using as a comparison a level I was familiar with. The problem with phone apps is comparing them for accuracy against a instrument of known standard as the reason for using it is because you don't have such a instrument.

Have you read the post on mobile phone SPL apps ?
Yes there are many that are not very accurate BUT provided they are used correctly there are at least 4 that measure accurately enough for them to be considered as being suitable for OHS measurements.

I wonder if we could do this, can as many people as possible who use a mobile phone and is attending the sharpening GTG down load an app and we run a comparison test during the day. It doesn't matter if some are the same because different phones and the same app might yield different results. I am presuming they are free?????? I have only ever ever downloaded a few free apps for a mobile phone so I don't know how this stuff works generally and I don't use a mobile phone these days as a rule.

The accurate ones are not free. The one I'm using from Faber Acoustic cost $20 - more accurate and cheaper than a cheap chinese dedicated SPL. It includes an accurate signal generator which can be amplified using a basic much amp and use to explore frequency specific problems with enclosures etc. Worth every cent.

Originally Posted by BobL

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

Not everyone carries specialty equipment so I fail to see how that helps this conversation Bob

My aim was not to highlight the use of special equipment but that (simple) consistent measurement procedures can help us make better comparable measurements.
That's why I mentioned not standing near the meter.
I have even written an FAQ about noise measurements - it's in the Practical aspects sticky on the Dust Forum


The better mobile phone apps will average the data for as long as the app is left running. This makes the measurement protocol as simple as; start and walk away from the mobile and go back to it when you like. The effect of you being there for the first and last 3-4 seconds is washed out if a 5 minute measurement interval is used.



Have you read the post on mobile phone SPL apps ?
Yes there are many that are not very accurate BUT provided they are used correctly there are at least 4 that measure accurately enough for them to be considered as being suitable for OHS measurements.



The accurate ones are not free. The one I'm using from Faber Acoustic cost $20 - more accurate and cheaper than a cheap chinese dedicated SPL. It includes an accurate signal generator which can be amplified using a basic much amp and use to explore frequency specific problems with enclosures etc. Worth every cent.

Oh, wow Bob I am impressed. You can settle down now and have a rest.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

Originally Posted by BobL

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

Not everyone carries specialty equipment so I fail to see how that helps this conversation Bob

Oh, wow Bob I am impressed. You can settle down now and have a rest.

I need it, I've be wielding a chainsaw fro most of the day - first time I've put in a whole day on one for a over a year so I'm stuffed.

Alan the best DB test you can possibly do is using granddaughter and maybe the grandson have them scream as best they can inside the closed up shed with machines & dusty going take your readings outside then. This will indicate best response time for IF the level is high enough for neighbours or even H to come running IF an injury is ever sustained which needs medical intervention. THIS is the greatest worry with sound proofing a workshop that no one will ever hear or take notice should an accident take place.

The only indicator then to those outside would be everything is still running at 3am something must be wrong.

Maybe a panic button fitted is a good idea..............not one which is related to bottle almost empty

My greatest noise concern is my compressor which is outside my shed and while it is in a sound reducing enclosure it needs air to get in and out for cooling so it is not as sound proof as I would like. If I accidentally leave it on my worry is it will go off at night and upset neighbours. This is why this is on a timer circuit that switches it off at 9pm and it can only ever be manually turned on after that. I know some people cut the power to their shed completely when they leave but I often have stuff like electrolysis, battery charging running. I do turn it off if I go away from more than a few days.

ONE of the challenges in putting together a DC system is that there is virtually no standardisation of dimensions between rigid duct, flexible duct and the myriad of fittings that are supposed to join them!
It is virtually impossible to put together a system without the liberal use of duct tape ... not just to join the bits together but for building up dimensions so they fit!
When something DOES go together, it is worth crowing about (sorry Peter).
Here is a rare example of DC serendipity....
I have started adapting my machines to either 2 X 100mm or 1 X 150 mm diameter outlets. To add an extra 100mm outlet to my table saw I needed a mounting plate, a gate and a quick connect.

Here is is a mounting plate from Hare and Forbes, a gate from Carbatec and a quick connect from Rockler.......

image.jpeg

.... that pressed together perfectly!
It will be fitted to the table saw here...

image.jpeg

...and connected using a standard Rockler quick connector.

image.jpeg

As my table saw has a built in router table and will have an above table dust collector, each extra outlet needs a gate because it needs to be closed off IF I am using 2 other outlets.
To find a SIMPLE solution for each new outlet is quite a win!
fletty

I understand what you means about having pieces that fit so you can get up and running.

One of the cheapest ways to make a machine connection is to use a PVC floor flange.
The following requires a bit of work but its not too bad.

This is what the floor flanges look like.
It's just the ring with the rim on it attached to a piece of 100 mm PVC ducting
FloorFlange.jpg

The Floor flange can be drilled and screwed to a cabinet - it's actually better to enlarge the hole in the cabinet so that the flange can be attach it on the inside of the cabinet. Then the small bell mouth hood edge works Helps ease the air flow.

The flange ID fits neatly the OD of 100 mm ducting which is greater than 100 mm.

A short piece of 100 mm (102mm ID) PVC can be glued to the inside of the duct and other 100 mm PVC ducting/fitting or flexy attached direct to that.
This helps main the 100 mm ducting size compared to most other fittings which are less than 100 mm and suffer correspondingly reduce air flow.
It helps if the inside edge of the piece of 100 ducting near the bell mouth edge is bevelled.

The 100 mm floor flange is $3 at Bunnings Holman 100mm PVC DWV Floor Flange | Bunnings Warehouse but I have seen then for less at specialist stores.

The 150 mm flange is much harder to get and costs about $8 but it saves time and a lot of headaches.