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Thread: Bosch v Festool SCMS
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12th September 2016, 05:40 AM #1GOLD MEMBER
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Bosch v Festool SCMS
Went to the T&WWW Show in Melbourne recently with the express intent of getting a Kapex 120 if there were any specials.
Even though the saw is $1895, there were no Show inducements to entice my wallet to open (not even a $50 voucher on consumerables etc - but I could have $100 off if I bought one of their dust collection systems as well ).
Whilst I like good quality tools, the reality is that I am a weekend warrior and cannot justify being treated as a cash cow by the Festool brand.
On the way home I dropped into a store that has the Kapex 120 and Bosch GCM12GDL on display for a side by side visual comparison. The Bosch is $990, so the savings is substantial.
Space savings of the Glide system is not a consideration for me, but dust collection is, and I understand that the Bosch is shocking in this regard.
Now my requirements at the moment are primarily for straight 90/45 degree vertical cuts. But accuracy is important (box making, picture frames and general furniture etc).
So the question is, will the Bosch fulfill my requirements, or should I bow down and bite the bullet and buy a Kapex?
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12th September 2016 05:40 AM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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12th September 2016, 06:54 AM #2
Found this recently on this topic.
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url...6&share_type=t
Bosch GCM 12 GDL review
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12th September 2016, 07:29 AM #3Member
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Whats wrong with the makita ones? Ive got an ls1214 had it 7 years now and it's still accurate and cuts great.
Biggest depth cut for 1k when it was out.
Unless you're doing crazy accurate high end joinery it isnt worth double. Its not like it 200% more accurate at cutting your pencil line.
Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk
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12th September 2016, 09:00 AM #4
Cava, you've answered your own question several times in the comparison you painted. First, you are not a cash cow for Festool, unless you choose to be. Then you say that the Bosch dust collection is not good enough. Do you know this or is it word of mouth or from some well meaning magazine? Either way, you feel you could live with it. Finally you ask if you should "bite the bullet and bow down". No-one is asking you to spend more than you have, nor are they eagerly awaiting you to buy the Kapex. It's a saw, it cuts wood, so does the Bosch. There's almost $1K in price difference. You could buy the Bosch and set up a reasonable dust collection system for the extra thousand. I have both the LS1214 and the Kapex. I use the Kapex almost exclusively. It's that good. But your mileage may differ.
Regards,
Rob
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12th September 2016, 09:53 AM #5SENIOR MEMBER
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Keep an eye you on The Wood Whisperer's YouTube channel. He just done a side by side comparison of these 2 saws. Should be out in about a week. If I see it I'll post a link.
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12th September 2016, 01:51 PM #6Member
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I added some plastic around my bosch mitre saw's dust collection mouth, its simple but huge improvement. As good as festool kapex.
Accuracy is same, glide smoother than kapex.
Runs a lot louder than kapex.
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12th September 2016, 02:57 PM #7GOLD MEMBER
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And I bet it doesn't break down as regularly.
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12th September 2016, 04:04 PM #8the reality is that I am a weekend warrior
My work around is a 20 year old table saw with a sliding table for large boards. Otherwise I use handsaws and/or a mitre box with handsaw, and then a shooting board with a hand plane. Most of the mitres are done with the latter, and most of the crosscuts are done with the sliding table. I wonder whether a home workshop would not be better off with a sliding table than a SCMS?
Regards from Perth
DerekVisit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.
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12th September 2016, 05:18 PM #9New Member
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I just moved on a Makita LS 1016 after 12 months of use in a shed/garage environment . Accuracy was acceptable but even with a dust extractor attached there was a lot of cleaning up to do. I replaced it with a Metabo KGS 254 Plus (I got some very sound advice from Huntingdale Power Tools not to mention a keener price than anywhere I could find on the interweb) I am very impressed with the accuracy straight out of the box and the dust extraction is brilliant. The Kapex was in my sights but the Metabo is a quality German built product at half the price.
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12th September 2016, 06:04 PM #10Woodworking mechanic
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12th September 2016, 06:15 PM #11GOLD MEMBER
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Derek, after I bought my sliding table saw I very nearly sold my SCMS but I hate parting with tools. A sliding sled on a TS would do a lot that a SCMS would do and in some cases more. Mine is a Bosch Glide saw and it used to spray dust and debris everywhere but I recently built a new dust hood and bench for it and after today when I cut heaps of timber I am very very pleased with the result. Dust Hood For Bosch Glide Saw
CHRIS
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12th September 2016, 06:41 PM #12
Thanks Chris. That information is helpful.
You did a very nice job with the dust extraction.
Looking at your SCMS with its 4 metre tables, it does strike me, however, that one possibly needs a lot of space for a dedicated SCMS.
This photo below of my tablesaw was taken about 20 years ago ..
The K12 Carbatec tablesaw has a sliding table, plus a router table, so there are a good number of tools on the same footprint.
These days one can purchase a add-on sliding table that works with most tablesaws, and I think it would cost half that of a Bosch Glide.
Regards from Perth
DerekVisit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.
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18th September 2016, 03:11 PM #13SENIOR MEMBER
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You've mentioned some, but not all your requirements, so I find it a little difficult to make any meaningful (final) recommendations.
But one thing is for certain: don't but a Kapex. I had one once, and have used many others over the years. Significantly, ALL had failed in a variety of ways. A quick perusal & search of this and other Fora, including the fanboy sites, will reveal large numbers of dissatisfied owners and users and their recurrent tales of woe. Significantly, there's also a wellspring of loyal fanboys out there too, willing to spring to the defense of their cherished brand, labelling even the merest hint of criticism as blasphemy. Therefore, one may conclude that the tool segregates opinions into two opposing camps with equally strongly held opinions. In its favour it is a fairly accurate saw, and it has above average dust extraction, provided you use a larger (>36mm) hose.
Suffice it to say that in my opinion, with a Kapex one doesn't necessarily get what one pays a premium for, and that not all surprises will be pleasant ones....
I currently use a Bosch glide SCMS, which is OK. I like its smooth action, quiet, easy to handle and much safer feeling than my previous saw was. I also like the quick adjustments, beyond 45 degrees and overall large cutting capacities, and the availability of much cheaper sawblades from the USA (mine has a "unique??" 1 inch arbor, the rest are 30mm). But it's big, and heavy. It works well on the gravity rise stand, but the stand and saw's combined weight is heavy, & the footprint so wide I have to "wiggle" it through standard doorways (no big problem really) and the pneumatic tyres constantly leak (which is a huge problem).
I really appreciate it's cantilevered arms (just like one of those fantastic NZ made Spida Saws) which save space onsite, but hate it's messiness with dust. There's only 2 SCMS which I consider to be currently superior. The KGS 254 I Plus & KGS 315 Plus from Metabo. The former is better as it's the only saw left that still has an induction motor fitted (for long life & quiet operation), and the latter for it's unequalled cutting capacities. As a bonus, both have outstanding dust extraction capability, utilising a large rear shroud. Generally either of these saws will cost about $50-$100 more than lesser saws.
But this is predicated of course on the portability of these saws. Given that you've not mentioned WHERE you intend using the saw, I've assumed that you'll be carting it about every day in the van as a site saw. This is where SCMS have a huge advantage over all other saws, and also where, as a dedicated fixed workshop saw they tend to fail, or at least be severely compromised.
In workshops table saws, especially when fitted with sliding carriages, reign supreme, as the sheer mass of inert cast iron tops, fences and sub-tables aids rigidity, immobility, accuracy and repeatability. In other words, the ideal saw for dissecting sheet material. If you want similar level of accuracy & repeatability in crosscutting for more "generalised" furniture work, tenoning, rabbeting, trenching, crosscutting etc. this is the domain of the Radial Arm Saw.
RAS are inherently dangerous, by virtue of their "climbing" cut. The risk of injury in inept hands (think students & apprentices) is sufficiently high for them to have been all but banned from TAFE's, high schools & other institutions. This has resulted in a flood of cheap, professional level saws becoming available to homeowners at a fraction of their replacement cost.
They are also finicky to setup. There's a specific sequence to accurately set the table & fence plumb & true to the plane of the blade, which must be methodically undertaken, and occasionally checked. They're big, space hungry saws that will require a dedicated wall of a workshop, together with dust shrouding side tabling etc. Just like an SCMS does.
Here the similarity ends. A RAS can crosscut, trench, tenon, compound miter, rabbet, & with appropriate accessories disc sand, rout, line drill, dado, and a host of other operations. All with a capacity (in the larger models) of over 600mm (1200mm when flipped), with an overall 3 dimensional accuracy of < 0.5mm too! Plus depths that can be far in excess of any SCMS.
The SCMS will always be much quicker to move around, adjust and to make individual cuts. But an RAS will usually have much greater capacity, accuracy and longevity. There's many a workshop still equipped with RAS that have been used all day, every day for 50 years or more. Properly maintained, an RAS could have a home workshop lifespan that exceeds a century! Eminently adjustable, rebuildable, maintainable and easily dissassembled and repaired, they are from a different era and ethos to more modern tools.
They could also be the biggest bargain of all time for the homeowner with sufficient workshop space.Sycophant to nobody!
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19th September 2016, 12:55 PM #14New Member
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I agree with your comments on RAS, unfortunately they do take up a lot of space. The Metabo's are quality saws but the KGS 254i Plus is around 36Kg and only bevels 22.5 to the right. Pity as the induction motor is a plus. The KGS plus saws use blades with two locating holes either side of the arbor for the Metabo quick change system. This means you are committed to Metabo blades (I understand they are made by Leitz so maybe not a bad thing) It's all about what suits in terms of size, weight, capacity, dust control etc.
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19th September 2016, 03:17 PM #15SENIOR MEMBER
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I have the bosch, purchased after planning to by the festy. Thing weighs a ton and I agree re dust collection (since when has any mitre say had good dust collection though). Great unit, I am happy with it and it seems to be fairly repeatable in terms of cuts. My decision in the end was simply because the bosch was a lot more saw for a whole lot less money. I read lots of comparisons and most (if not all) pointed to the bosch.
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