Thread: Trying hand-cut dovetails - dovetail saw western vs japanese?

.018 is as fine as I go.

Oh man. I wish Id never seen this thread. Now there are multiple saws, multiple planes with additional toothed blades and gauges in my cart at LV.... it cant be Unseen!!

I think the English made Garlick and Son gentleman's and tenon saws are well made and quite good value for money, at least in my hands and skill level.
https://www.finetools.com.au/collect...ck%20%26%20Son


Cheers

Graeme

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

I think the English made Garlick and Son gentleman's and tenon saws are well made and quite good value for money......

I sort of agree, Graeme, but those disgusting bits of wood they attach as handles! (insert throwing-up icon here...)

Dom, "ALL saws become equal after the first sharpening" is my mantra. If the high-priced saws were made of superior sawplate, perhaps they would be worth the considerable extra outlay, but as far as I can determine, they are pretty standard metal! Their only advantage, as far as I can see is that they have vastly better handles, usually set at sensible hang-angles for their intended purpose, and the fact that you've paid a lot of $$s for them usually means you'll look after them and have them properly sharpened. Buy a saw that feels comfortable in your hand and just learn to use it - I also reckon the LV saws are the best bang for buck, even though I don't like the look of them, being a traditionalist when it comes to backsaws! A saw is like any other tool, keep it sharp and use it well and it'll do a good job for you. Once you've got some experience under your belt, you'll have a pretty good idea of what suits you & what doesn't.

'Push' vs 'pull' is a discussion that comes around regularly, and as far as I can see it's tweedle-dum & tweedle dee. Whatever you like & what feels 'natural' to you is best. I don't like pull saws because I was far too rusted on to push saws by the time I tried one, and gave up on the one I had very quickly (probably too quickly!). But lots of people I respect love them. There is one objective advantage in using a push saw when cutting to a line - the push saw feathers the cut on the side away from you, and doesn't obscure the scribe line the way a pull saw can. And being able to sharpen a saw is a must, for me!

I'm blowed if I know what the fuss is about in starting a saw of 14-15tpi. I guess I have been doing it for a while, but I really can't remember it ever being a problem. For thumping great 3 1/2tpi ripsaws, yes, but not a fine-ish toothed backsaw. Surely a little practice will sort that out soon enough. I've tried increasing the (negative) rake on the first inch or so at the toe on a few saws, but it really didn't make all that much difference to me, and I decided it wasn't worth the extra fuss when sharpening. (It really wasn't much fuss, which indicates how little difference it made. ) As far as I'm concerned some of the sales pitches like leaving the first inch or so of your blade un-toothed is just a waste of saw plate.

I think there are some myths about thick vs thin saws. The prevailing myth is that a thin saw cuts faster. If two saws of approximately the same size have the same teeth profiles & tpi, but vary in plate thickness by as much as 10 thou, they will cut at exactly the same rate (make sure you do at least 10 cuts with each saw, using the same number of strokes, then average them). The thicker saw has to remove a little more wood and so requires a little more effort to push, but the difference is so small in the saws we're talking about, I defy anyone to detect it, blindfolded. I've put it to the test a couple of times, so I'm prepared to stand by that assertion. My favourite dovetail saw happens to have 15 thou plate, but it has more to do with the handle & general balance than the saw plate - I reckon I would like it just as much if it was 20 thou.

Derek & Rustynail suggest thin plate saws are more easily damaged by an inexperienced sawyer, & that has been my worry, too. So far, none of my 15 thou saws have come back kinked, touch wood. The 15 thou saws I make have pretty narrow blades (<50mm under the spine) and usually no more than 225 mm long, which may help, as there is less leverage on the blade if it jams. I used to try to talk less-experienced folks into 20 thou plate, but I rarely succeeded, nearly everyone is fixed on the thinnest possible for a D/T saw. If you could visit my shed, I'd get you to try two saws that were identical apart from one having 20 thou & the other 15 thou plate thickness. I reckon you'd find it hard to tell me which is which.

I'll add my voice to going for 14-15tpi for a general-purpose dovetailer, unless you are a box-maker & regularly cut joints in <10mm stock. The 'rule of thumb' is to have a minimum of 6 teeth in the cut, which would indicate a 15tpi is only good to 10mm thickness, but I use mine down to 6mm often enough. It does depend a bit on the wood you are sawing. I've always found 15tpi to be a very good compromise for a D/T saw used in general cabinetry, where most of your cuts will be in stock from about 16mm to 25mm thick. If I need to cut stock thicker than 25mm I usually reach for a slightly larger saw with around 12-13tpi.

The biggest difference in how smooth a cut you get is indirectly related to the tpi, imo. What determines most how smoothly a saw cuts is how evenly it is set. With small teeth, you have less to push over, so you get them less mis-aligned, and the scratch marks from the over-set teeth are smaller. You'd think you should get every tooth identical with a good saw-set, but this is far from the case when you start out, and one reason most sharpeners recommend 'stoning' the teeth after setting, to even out the outliers.

Finally, most people find it easy enough to sharpen 15tpi - beyond that, it starts to get a bit hairy.

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

I sort of agree, Graeme, but those disgusting bits of wood they attach as handles! (insert throwing-up icon here...)

No argument here.

Dom, "ALL saws become equal after the first sharpening" is my mantra.

And some are more equal after Ian replaces the handle.

I don't like pull saws because I was far too rusted on to push saws by the time I tried one, and gave up on the one I had very quickly (probably too quickly!). But lots of people I respect love them.

There is a definite learning curve involved with pull-saws - 100+ cuts, in my opinion.

Derek & Rustynail suggest thin plate saws are more easily damaged by an inexperienced sawyer, & that has been my worry, too.

This comment especially applies to pull-saws, Ian. My first couple of Japanese saws were kinked when the "rusted on" muscles forgot and attempted to cut on the push stroke....


Another great post, Ian, Thank you.


Cheers

Graeme

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

.....And some are more equal after Ian replaces the handle.....

Well, I like to think so, Graeme, but not everyone may agree...

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

.....There is a definite learning curve involved with pull-saws - 100+ cuts, in my opinion......

I think in my case the rust was so thick it would've taken many hundreds more cuts than that for me to feel anything like as comfortable & confident with the pull saws as I am with a nice Western backsaw. It wasn't just cutting on the pull stroke, it was the totally different way I had to hold the thing. I tried, I really did, because I was given the saw by a good friend who sang its praises, so I felt like a clumsy idiot when that saw & I just couldn't strike up a working partnership. I ended up giving it away, & suppressed my guilt by telling myself that it would soon be dull & I couldn't have re-sharpened those complex teeth to save myself, even if it they hadn't been hardened...

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

.....This comment especially applies to pull-saws, Ian. My first couple of Japanese saws were kinked when the "rusted on" muscles forgot and attempted to cut on the push stroke....

I find that interesting, because I would've expected a pull saw with a back to be far less vulnerable to kinking than a push saw. On reflection, I suppose I shouldn't be, because about the only saw I've ever kinked is the very thin 'keyhole' saw I made a while back. I formed the teeth to cut on the pull stroke because I reckoned that saw was a monty to kink if it caught, and cutting on the pull stroke would eliminate that possibility. I was dead right on the first part, & dead wrong on the second. It caught on the return stroke about the 2nd or 3rd time I used it. I straightened it, & it's useable (with care!) but the evidence of its little accident is still visible. Fortunately, the blade was just an offcut from my sawmaking, & I'll eventually get round to replacing it if it ever moves up the waiting list far enough.....

Cheers,

Thanks guys, a lot of really good feedback and advice.

I am actually really comfortable with the Japanese saws and they feel quite natural to me. The main reason I want to go western is to get away from disposable sawblades and that whole disposable/consumerist attitude. I want a life-time tool and I aim to learn to sharpen it/them well myself.

I know the sensible choice is to go with a few Veritas saws... but...

BATW12R15+CWNbSlDT(L)_Stiletto.jpg

Come on, just how am I supposed to resist that? I don't think I have the will-power... I need help... (new credit card is already whimpering in the background... other cards are trying to console it but they all know what's coming...they've been there before )

Dom, I empathise with your attraction to the Bad Axe. Seeing some old saws like that led me into first re-handling saws, then (thanks mainly to RayG) into making the whole darn thing. The saws in question were in a picture of Duncan Phyfe's toolbox (Here are some very nice pics for you to ogle. They are copyrighted, so I won't paste them in the post). I think I might've given the impression I don't value appearance with hand tools, but that's far from the case. I definitely demand function first, but I don't like rough or ungainly things, so I prefer tools that both work well & look good!

You get a lot of sizzle with the sausage from Bad-axe, but I don't think there's any doubt it's an excellent sausage. He offers a bewildering variety of choices for every part of the tool, so essentially you get a custom-made saw. Most of the choices are cosmetic details, but getting a handle made to your palm size is definitely worthwhile. The hang-angle on his dovetailers is high, which gives you a very comfortable grip when sawing above bench height, as you tend to do when cutting dovetails. I find it makes it easier to cut to the line back & front simultaneously because you are 'naturally' holding the saw more or less horizontal. Some of the other boutique makers use handles on what they call 'dovetail saws' that are far more suited to carcase saws, imo. A dovetail saw is really nothing more than a small tenon saw, so what I had to say about tenon vs carcase saw handles in this AWR video applies equally well to dovetail saws.

I'm not sure I agree with his evaluation of spine materials, entirely, nor with the assertion that longer saws necessarily give more 'accuracy', frankly, I see no functional comparison between gun barrels and saw blades, but you can't sensibly debate subjective issues, but others may see it differently. It's the placebo effect, if you think a longer saw helps you to make more accurate cuts, then it almost certainly does. My own preference is for a lighter, shorter saw for cutting dovetails. It's like driving a sports car vs a station-wagon. When cutting a series of dovetails, you want a light-ish saw that's easily placed accurately on the lines, and maneuverability as you flick from the right-hand slopes to the left hand slopes.

But different people produce perfectly acceptable dovetails by a variety of methods, using very different saws, so it's a personal choice....

Cheers,

I started and stayed with Western. Only used Japanese for practice cuts.

But, honestly, if my first six dovetail joints all looked that good from a few feet away and included decorative, half blind dovetails, then I would just stick with the saw I had and skip the practice. You're good to go!

Originally Posted by DomAU

I am actually really comfortable with the Japanese saws and they feel quite natural to me. The main reason I want to go western is to get away from disposable sawblades and that whole disposable/consumerist attitude. I want a life-time tool and I aim to learn to sharpen it/them well myself.

you do know that you can get re-sharpenable Japanese saws?
https://www.japanwoodworker.com/prod...7070231a00002d
or
http://www.hidatool.com/woodworking/...ut-dozuki-saws

saw files
https://www.japanwoodworker.com/prod...7070231a000035
and
Saw Sharpening Feather File, Oneside Coarse

I tried sharpening the "rat's teeth" on a replaceable blade on a Dozuki saw with a feather file, but the impulse hardened metal was just too hard. Might just be possible with a diamond file........ ??
https://www.carbatec.com.au/handtool...ese-dozuki-saw


Cheers

Graeme

Originally Posted by ian

....you do know that you can get re-sharpenable Japanese saws? ........

Yes, Ian, they've been around a while - they would pre-date the impulse-hardened saws by a century or two...

Japanese craftsmen must've sharpened their own saws since time was, & I would imagine to them it would be no more challenging than sharpening a Western crosscut saw is for me. Some day, I'm going to tackle a couple, just for the heck of it, but I reckon it'll be a steep learning curve for someone so used to simple triangular teeth. I remember the mess I made of the first crosscut saw I tried to sharpen (only a very naive beginner would choose to start with an 18tpi crosscut! ). I've come a little ways since then, but I'm still not quite ready for a Japanese tooth profile....

Cheers,

Dom

Your dovetails look excellent. I suggest you consider Gramercy Saws which scored very well in Cristopher Schwarzs review of various handsaws and I would suggest a 12" rip cut Carcass Saw for anything over 10mm or so thickness boards details here https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/...m/GT-CSAW12.XX

I am currently making one from a Kit which I obtained from Colen Clenton, you can get the Kit or complete saw from either the above or Colen Clenton.

I decided on the Kit as I have been slowly ( ever so ) gravitating towards Western saws, and wanted the experience of making another saw.



Regards

Originally Posted by Luke Maddux

I started and stayed with Western. Only used Japanese for practice cuts.

But, honestly, if my first six dovetail joints all looked that good from a few feet away and included decorative, half blind dovetails, then I would just stick with the saw I had and skip the practice. You're good to go!

Thanks Luke,

I decided if I was going to make a heap of practise corners I may as well pump out a few simple boxes for loose tools etc in the process (simple because I don't want to slow down/take time away from the dovetail cutting part).

Started this box and dovetails are coming quicker and neater. That's 10 of 100 done!

20170413_071758.jpg