Thread: Calendars for your shed/workshop - Makita Girls

Originally Posted by Mnb

I looked at this earlier and it 11 guests browsing, now it has 12.
To the guests - This is not a reflection of most of the forum. That's an indisputable fact. I'm actually surprised the thread has lasted this long.
If you like this thread and want more discussions like it then there is no point in joining Nope
and if you don't then don't be put off. Yup.

Flamers never last too long here before they are sorted out one way or another.

Originally Posted by aussiemick01

Your initial comment cast denigrating aspersions on people who have done nothing morally or legally wrong. You got the backlash you deserved with your pointless virtue signalling that only detracted from the topic. It only continued because you dug up an old thread. If you had said nothing it most likely would have gone away. And no one would have been offended. Seeing as the topic is essentially a harmless one.

Just because you are offended/getting offended on behalf of an imaginary person. Does not mean you are correct, and the 'others' are wrongthinkers. And if a passerby was so traumatised by this topic, They most certainly would not be a benefit to any community they join.

Every where you go does not have to perfectly fit your worldview. When you realise that. Your life will be much more pleasant.

which was preceded by:

Originally Posted by aussiemick01

We will be the judge of that. And going by your delirious rants. You clearly got brainwashed at school and uni. If you don't like something. You don't get to take it away from other people so It fits your draconian delusional ideology.

Uh-huh.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Are you able to define what modern feminism is? (No, I probably can't give a particularly good definition, but I'm not making your bold statement and nor do I believe it's gross hypocrisy).

Yes certainly. I'm glad you asked. It is often described as 3rd wave and sometimes 4th wave feminism. It is completely removed from 1st wave feminism. 1st wave feminism was about gaining the right to vote, property rights and similar rights that at the time had recently been granted to all men. 3rd wave feminism is something else entirely. It is a most pernicious ideology.
I don't use the term 3rd wave feminism because there are all sort of other little individual XXX feminisms that contemporary feminists like to claim/redefine. I prefer the more all encompassing term; modern or contemporary feminism.
Keep in mind the the entire discussion is predicated within the western, developed world context.

I can summarise to problem with contemporay feminism quite succinctly:
[Contemporary] feminism is about equality of OUTCOMES for in SELECTED AREAS of society which are deemed to be advantageous to WOMEN. Often while working to maintain or deepen the DISADVANTAGES in other areas faced by men.

Compare this with egalitarianism, which is what the vast majority of us prescribe to today.
Egalitarianism is about equal OPPORTUNITIES in ALL areas of society for ALL people.

This is a marked contrast to contemporary feminism when things are put into practice.

For example, feminists and feminist organisations (especially the largest most influential feminist organisations) have fought for 4 decades in almost every western country to prevent fathers and men being treated equally in the divorce industry and family courts.
- refer to '...working to maintain or deepen the DISADVANTAGES in other areas faced by men.'
Feminists have brought about things like sexist policies in large organisations where they will only hire women (ARTC in the Hunter Valley), or explicitly pay women more based solely on their genitals (ANZ bank).
(Where are the hospitals and schools that will only hire men?)
- refer to '...equality of OUTCOMES for in SELECTED AREAS of society which are deemed to be advantageous to WOMEN'.

Which brings us on to the hypocrisy of feminism. Feminism is completely riddled with hypocrisy.
Feminism is now hypocritical to it's very core. The entire paradigm it is based on is false. It assumes that women are always victims and men are oppressors just as you have done. However any objective analysis shows us that this is simply not true. I'd be happy to explain this aspect to you at length if you like. Just ask.

"...it's the way it has been brought to attention that is the problem. It's symptomatic of a bigger, uglier picture...the exploitation of women by men"
I don't understand what 'the problem' is. You don't like the tone of voice of the OP? I also don't see where is the 'exploitation of women by men' in pictures in a calendar. Please explain. 'The problem' you claim, makes no sense to me. Please do explain it.
"It's been going on for millennia " - are you referring to how men have always fought died, lost limbs and endured the greatest extremes of hardship in their attempts to protect and shield their women and children form the worst of society and to provide their women and children with relative comfort? Is that what you were referring to? Or did that little factoid skip your attention? Please do tell us how the white feather brigade of the first world war was so oppressed by the millions of men dying on the front in the mud like flies. Oh! How privileged men have been!

Also please do explain how some imaginary privilege that happened millennia ago, is relevant to calendars today.
By that logic, you should give away your house to an aboriginal, apologize for being born here and get on the next plane out of Australia. I mean, surely that is your responsibility by your own logic. No?

I trust I am being respectful to you. I'm just logically following your claims to demonstrate how they are based on a false and hypocritical paradigm.
Probably like most people, you are just repeating what you have been taught by feminists without any real analysis. I'm not trying to have a go at you. I'm trying to get you to objectively look at the matra you have been fed.

The original OP is not asking for calendars of naked firemen to be banned. If a female what to cover their shed, or studio or private space with naked firemen, I'm sure he has no objection. However other people are shutting down anyone who would offer him the same opportunity to put up pictures of sexy women. The OP was under the impression that we no longer live in the Victorian era. And it seems women do not. Hence the OP asks, why are men expected to live under these Victorian 'morals'? It's yet another example of feminist hypocrisy and I don't believe you have justified it.
If he want's calendars in his private shed, from his regular supplier of such things, why would anyone object unless they are authoritarian?
Answer: they ARE authoritarian. by definition.

Thank you for deleting the post insulting Fence Furniture.

Elan - I see your point. The problem is that it's such a feedback loop.

Partly the issue is that things like calendars with objectified models (advertisements, magazines etc) influence and often shape the way we see things. They also only work or sell because they take advantage of the way we see things. Like the example of calendars with firemen on them - it really annoys me that rather than avoiding objectifying women society has now started objectifying men as well. That may be more equal but ... In the last ten years or so there has been a huge increase in teen boys with eating disorders.

Things like the Makita or Firemen calendars would probably not be an issue if not for the attitudes behind them. Just admiring the opposite sex is no big deal. Unfortunately it isn't like that yet.

I'm not a big supporter of censorship. How do you change the ingrained attitudes though?

Personally I don't think the sex trade should be illegal. For one thing the conditions for workers would be far worse. On the other hand a lot of the women and boys in the trade are there because they think they are worth nothing more. Not all. There are people that would willingly choose it even if they had other options but they are the minority.

EDIT: I wrote this before Elan's feminism post.

Thanks Moderator

I disagree with Elan but he has made an argument and not insults. Would like to reply.

None of what I wrote attacked anyone. It was what they said/did that was criticised.

Obviously wrong think. I'll just step away from this discussion as I'm not part of the right think.

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Originally Posted by Mnb

On the other hand a lot of the women and boys in the trade are there because they think they are worth nothing more. Not all. There are people that would willingly choose it even if they had other options but they are the minority.

What are you basing that on? I have actually asked several sex workers and adult dancers why they went in to such a stigmatised industry and their answers were all along the lines of "the hours are flexible, the money is good and it's generally fun". Some were single mums, some were funding higher education, some were doing it to supplement their regular income.

Admittedly it's a small sample size, but it's not always a sad story.

Well this has been some interesting reading, thank you to all that have contributed so far, and some posts have actually opened my eyes and taught me some things, it's great to see all the different views. I guess all I was trying to do is find out what others thought and see if my thoughts are along the lines with anyone else or I'm just viewed as a sexist pig. I didn't really want it to become a fight or to rally all men to stand up for themselves or whatever.

It's really just about the thing I have hanging on my wall in my shed. I'm enjoying my calendar, I just wish it was woodworking/tool related somehow. No I don't need it to be, just wonder why it can no longer be. And I'm glad it hasn't got to the point where there is absolutely none out there to buy. Not yet anyway.


P.S. I think I might take it down when my parents drop by, although the missus doesn't mind, she's on my side, she actually helped me choose it! It doesn't matter where you get your appetite from, as long as you eat at home!

Originally Posted by Mnb

Thank you for deleting the post insulting Fence Furniture. I musta missed something.

Partly the issue is that things like calendars with objectified models (advertisements, magazines etc) influence and often shape the way we see things. They also only work or sell because they take advantage of the way we see things.
Like the example of calendars with firemen on them - it really annoys me that rather than avoiding objectifying women society has now started objectifying men as well. Yes, it's an example of an over-correction, or two wrongs trying to be right. The thing to do is just stop objectifying women.
That may be more equal but ... In the last ten years or so there has been a huge increase in teen boys with eating disorders.

Things like the Makita or Firemen calendars would probably not be an issue if not for the attitudes behind them. Exactly. I'm assuming that you are a woman, and would not have witnessed what I have in various male-only lunchrooms. It is true that the less educated the lunchroom the bawdier/lewder/more disgusting the comments, but even highly educated lunchrooms can be pretty rugged.

Just admiring the opposite sex is no big deal. No Unfortunately it isn't like that yet. No

I'm not a big supporter of censorship. How do you change the ingrained attitudes though? They are changing, but there are still some Dinosaurs left roaming. They will eventually go.

All very well said by Mnb.

Originally Posted by DaveVman

For example, feminists and feminist organisations (especially the largest most influential feminist organisations) have fought for 4 decades in almost every western country to prevent fathers and men being treated equally in the divorce industry and family courts. Been there myself, and more than anything I think it was just a way of women beating men up in response to how they have been treated - so another over-correction. Sensible mothers acknowledge that kids need two parents, provided they are fit to be in contact with them. There is no one size fits all.

- refer to '...working to maintain or deepen the DISADVANTAGES in other areas faced by men.' That's getting a bit emotive.

Feminists have brought about things like sexist policies in large organisations where they will only hire women (ARTC in the Hunter Valley), or explicitly pay women more based solely on their genitals (ANZ bank). Woman getting paid more? Sacred Bluey!! That's a pretty poor argument.

I'd be happy to explain this aspect to you at length if you like. Just ask. Actually, I'll pass on that.....it's been plenty long enough already.

"...it's the way it has been brought to attention that is the problem. It's symptomatic of a bigger, uglier picture...the exploitation of women by men"
I don't understand what 'the problem' is. You don't like the tone of voice of the OP? I also don't see where is the 'exploitation of women by men' in pictures in a calendar. Please explain. 'The problem' you claim, makes no sense to me. Please do explain it. Well you may have to think some of this through for yourself, but just one of the things that is a big problem is the way young girls (generally teenagers) are expected to perform or look in a certain way because their boyfriends demand what they can see on the internet. If they won't do it they don't get boyfriends or get slut-shamed for not being a slut, or ridiculed, bullied etc.

A while back, and not really so long ago, teenage suicide was not "a problem" like it is now, in fact is was virtually unheard of - think about how little teen suicide there was in the late 70s when you were a teenager. This is of course not what the OP is referring to - but you asked me to explain what I meant by a bigger uglier picture. That's a small snippet of it.

"It's been going on for millennia " - are you referring to how men have always fought died, lost limbs and endured the greatest extremes of hardship in their attempts to protect and shield their women and children form the worst of society and to provide their women and children with relative comfort? Is that what you were referring to? Or did that little factoid skip your attention? Please do tell us how the white feather brigade of the first world war was so oppressed by the millions of men dying on the front in the mud like flies. Oh! How privileged men have been! You are trying to put a lot of words into my mouth - emotive words. But to respond to the first part - men start the vast majority all wars. Losing limbs and lives is not a justification for the low value that women have generally been given. Even getting a vote so that they could have more of a say took hundreds of years. Women had to give over everything they owned to their husbands when they got married. But you know all this - you're just choosing to ignore it now that it doesn't happen anymore.

Also please do explain how some imaginary privilege that happened millennia ago, is relevant to calendars today.
By that logic, you should give away your house to an aboriginal, apologize for being born here and get on the next plane out of Australia. I mean, surely that is your responsibility by your own logic. No? You are going through some pretty crazy leaps there, and not being at all logical.

The original OP is not asking for calendars of naked firemen to be banned. No.
If a female what to cover their shed, or studio or private space with naked firemen, I'm sure he has no objection. Well he couldn't possibly object could he?

Too much emotive language used by DaveVman to be bothered responding to much of it. Before I read his response, I asked my partner to read it and comment to me. First and second wave stuff - all good. Third wave - grossly cherry picked and out of kilter. Just an opinion, not a definition, and most certainly not indicative of her view of modern feminism. Yes, she says, there have been over-corrections and mistakes made, but at least things are overall better than they were. It ain't perfect but it's a work in progress.




I'll just repeat what I said before - had I seen the calendar or pics they probably wouldn't have bothered me much at all. The point is that they are unnecessary. If you need a calendar then get one. If you want pics of women in your shed, well do it for crying out loud. It's a private space, but it does not mean that other people have to like it, or can't disagree with it, should you decide to make it public (by yapping about it here).

Originally Posted by Ausworkshop

.....need to grow some balls and say what they really want

Originally Posted by Ausworkshop

P.S. I think I might take it down when my parents drop by,

That's not very ballsy.

I had decided to ignore this thread then I changed my mind. I wrote quite an extensive post which was logical and had quotes. Unfortunately my internet died and I lost it because I wasn't logged in or something. Anyway this is off the top of my head and I'm not going to check it before I post so if I say the wrong thing sorry.

1. I used to work with junkies and knew a lot of sex workers. You got a standard answer. It is partly true and actually true for a very few. Most people whether men or women become sex workers or strippers because they feel that is the best they deserve, that is all they are good for, that they can at least be paid for what they are forced to do or were forced to do, that they have at least got a small amount of choice in how they are treated (security backup - there is always someone there whether it is at a brothel or someone waiting in the car when they do home visits or someone following in a car when on the street) or they have absolutely no choice. There is actually a human trade in Australia and many of the women in the legal brothels, particularly Vic and NSW, literally have no choice.

2. I agree that many fourth wave feminists are hypocritical. Just as those men who would plaster their walls with calendars to p#ss someone off that has a go at them for it or who love to anger feminists or rejects any attempt to explain the way women are oppressed and instead insult a man that disagrees - well some women are sick of it and go to far too.

3. Delusional? I must have been delusional when I wasn't allowed to play footy as a kid. Cause that was taken away from me by a draconian idealogy. Well I was 5,6, and 7. I didn't have breasts and I was faster and better than the boys. Yep dellusional. In grade four they took away my right to play at the M.C.G. because I was a girl and it meant that a boy missed out. But that was millennia ago? They are specifics but you know I could mention that they took away my right to have the aim of being a soldier, an engineer, an astronaut, a spy, a software engineer, a CEO, a martial artist, a detective, a producer, an editor, an architect, a builder, a million other things because they weren't things that girls do - A WOODWORKER!! There are still #@$% all women woodworkers, cabinet makers, joiners, high quality furniture makers etc that are out there for young girls to see and aspire to be.

3. I don't really know what I have written but I know that if anyone thinks that men do women a favour by "protecting and shielding" them then they certainly don't see us as equals.

Is not beauty in the eye of the beholder regardless of anyone else s view and does not the mouth lay bare what is in ones heart good or bad.
My old high school moto was "As a man thinks, so shall he be", the same applies to a woman.

lol. Indeed. As a person thinks so shall they be ...

And:
"Be not afraid of greatness" ...

But some of us are taught to be afraid. We are taught how to think. Unfortunately not just women.




Just as Fence Furniture points out - the issue isn't bout the pics - you obviously have access to them. Perhaps the trade off in losing your Makita girls calendar is more than made up for in the ability to access and print out any sort of pornographic picture you would desire?

So next time there is a war I suggest you ASK the nearest women whether they would trade their position for yours -

OR BETTER YET MAYBE BE EQUALS

Originally Posted by Mnb

I had decided to ignore this thread then I changed my mind. I wrote quite an extensive post which was logical and had quotes. Unfortunately my internet died and I lost it because I wasn't logged in or something. Anyway this is off the top of my head and I'm not going to check it before I post so if I say the wrong thing sorry.

1. I used to work with junkies and knew a lot of sex workers. You got a standard answer. It is partly true and actually true for a very few. Most people whether men or women become sex workers or strippers because they feel that is the best they deserve, that is all they are good for, that they can at least be paid for what they are forced to do or were forced to do, that they have at least got a small amount of choice in how they are treated (security backup - there is always someone there whether it is at a brothel or someone waiting in the car when they do home visits or someone following in a car when on the street) or they have absolutely no choice. There is actually a human trade in Australia and many of the women in the legal brothels, particularly Vic and NSW, literally have no choice.

2. I agree that many fourth wave feminists are hypocritical. Just as those men who would plaster their walls with calendars to p#ss someone off that has a go at them for it or who love to anger feminists or rejects any attempt to explain the way women are oppressed and instead insult a man that disagrees - well some women are sick of it and go to far too.

3. Delusional? I must have been delusional when I wasn't allowed to play footy as a kid. Cause that was taken away from me by a draconian idealogy. Well I was 5,6, and 7. I didn't have breasts and I was faster and better than the boys. Yep dellusional. In grade four they took away my right to play at the M.C.G. because I was a girl and it meant that a boy missed out. But that was millennia ago? They are specifics but you know I could mention that they took away my right to have the aim of being a soldier, an engineer, an astronaut, a spy, a software engineer, a CEO, a martial artist, a detective, a producer, an editor, an architect, a builder, a million other things because they weren't things that girls do - A WOODWORKER!! There are still #@$% all women woodworkers, cabinet makers, joiners, high quality furniture makers etc that are out there for young girls to see and aspire to be.

3. I don't really know what I have written but I know that if anyone thinks that men do women a favour by "protecting and shielding" them then they certainly don't see us as equals.

I'm traveling so apologies for the typos.

Point 2: the thing is that you haven't explained how women today are oppressed any more than men are. In particular calendar girls.

I like to mock contemporary feminists sometimes because it illustrates how absurd their ideology has become. However I haven't done that much here or in any reasonable discussion on the topic.

I didn't get to compete in girls sports when I was 5 6 or 7. Oh the oppression!
For some weird reason I didn't wallow in victimhood. Instead as an adult I played mixed sport because it's fun.

There's plenty of women woodworkers for inspiration. Heard of YouTube? The reason there are not a large number of women woodworkers is because it doesn't interest most women. There's no magical force stopping women being woodworkers. I've read nothing but encouragement for them here for example.
Of course it helps if a woman takes up the hobby without a victimhood complex and just for the enjoyment of working with wood like everyone else.

Point 3. The point of men protecting women was very clearly referring to the past in the context of pointing out the realities of historical life for the vast majority of people. It's not as if feminists are adverse to special treatment today.

If we're all for equality of opportunity then the OP has a point that political pressure should not be applied to toe the line of a particular ideology.


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Originally Posted by DaveVman

There's no magical force stopping women being woodworkers. I've read nothing but encouragement for them here for example.

I'm not so sure, the amount of encouragement is good but is still overwhelmed by subtle negative expectations from family, friends and especially peers, and not so subtle expectations in things like social/media. Apart from trash like the Block, how often do you see a female celebrity wielding a tool versus wielding an absurd boob job. The Australian of the year is still an exception in her field. I like what she said regarding clearing the way to enable kids to "do what you want to do". This has to include removing negative expectations from the pressure equation.