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  1. #136
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    I recently purchased a 2HP Powtran PI160 which I was going to use replace an HY on my DP. There's nothing wrong with the HY but it does not have vector drive so has limited torque at low RPMs.

    The Powtran also has braking circuitry built in so I then thought I should replace the 7 year old SAJ VFD on the MW lathe with the new Powtran and move the SAJ to the DP. Although the SAJ is a vector drive VFD its has no braking circuit and the braking feature is of more value on a lathe than a DP. The one thing that put me off slightly was that replacements like this always take longer than one thinks as nothing is rarely in the same place so I girded myself for a fair degree of phaphing about.

    The SAJ is located inside a ventilated power tool box and I had not opened that box up for a couple of years.
    When I opened up the tool box it struck me how similar (at least the outer case) the older SAJ was to the newer Powtran.
    As the cable connection locations were nearly identical this would not require any wiring changes

    Here are a couple of photos of the two side by side.

    Front view, sans control panel.
    Notice that even the socket for the control panels are the same and I was able to use the cable supplied with the SAJ to run the Powtran,
    The leads me to suspect that SAJ (a AUS company that are no longer around) had simply rebadged old Powtran VFDs?
    IMG_2920.jpg

    Top almost identical - note the order of the connections is different
    IMG_2922.jpg

    Underside - some differences including the fan location.
    IMG_2921.jpg

    The insides looks different and also perform quite differently.
    As to be expected on a newer VFD the boot up speed is much faster on the Powtran.
    The Powtran has a built in brake circuit and a much more extensive instruction set than the SAJ.

    Anyway the mounting holes were identical so it was easy enough to switch them over and get my lathe back into action.
    Now to switch the HY to the SAJ on the DP . Unfortunately not so straight forward this time.

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  3. #137
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Melbourne
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    96

    Default Wolfenden 12" jointer - VFD addition

    Hi all,

    This has been a great thread to skim through

    I recently acquired a 12" Wolfenden jointer, with an Asea (now ABB?) 3 ph motor in it (model 'm 4346 302')

    There is no info plate on the motor itself, only the inside of the cable cover, photos of which I've attached here. I haven't been able to find any info online - would anyone have any info on this motor?

    Through basic guesswork, I purchased a 3.7 KW / 5 HP VFD 15A, hooked up and when the motor is not under load it runs fine.

    When the belts are attached, and the motor engages the cutter head, the VFD accelerates from 0 to 50 Hz in about 10 seconds, but it takes the motor a good 5 minutes or so to get up to speed. The cutterhead itself is huge - so I can see why - but I am wondering if I have underspeced the VFD? Or something else I need to change?

    Steven.


    2018-04-05 10.54.02.jpg2018-04-05 10.54.08.jpg2018-04-05 10.54.28.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images

  4. #138
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    Feb 2006
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    Perth
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    A few questions

    1) Given you said a 15A VFD I assume it's 240 SP to 240 3P VFD? - if so, did you convert the motor to ∆ connection?

    2) Have you got it plugged into at least a dedicated 20A circuit/breaker?

    3) What make of VFD? Was it new? Did you perform a FULL factory reset before you started ?

    4) Did you enter the motor parameters into the VFD? I realise you don't have them available but a first estimate would be those for a conventional 5HP motor.

    5) When you say, "it takes the motor a good 5 minutes or so to get up to speed."
    Is that based on tachometer measurements or just the sound it makes?

    Through basic guesswork, I purchased a 3.7 KW / 5 HP VFD 15A, hooked up and when the motor is not under load it runs fine.

    What were the steps in your guess work?

    If there is no load on the cutter head even a 3HP motor should be able to accelerate even a large 12" cutter head to full speed with 10 seconds.
    If the motor did not get up to speed within the 10s or shortly there after the VFD should report an overload error of some kind within a few
    seconds.

    Can you put an ammeter on the input and then output side of the VFD and report back what you see start up current and what happens as it gets up to speed.

    My guess is that there is a low current limit in the VFD program that prevents the motor from drawing too much current even under the load of the cutters - 5 minute still sounds like a long time.



  5. #139
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    Oct 2013
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    Melbourne
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    A few questions

    1) Given you said a 15A VFD I assume it's 240 SP to 240 3P VFD? - if so, did you convert the motor to ∆ connection?

    2) Have you got it plugged into at least a dedicated 20A circuit/breaker?

    3) What make of VFD? Was it new? Did you perform a FULL factory reset before you started ?

    4) Did you enter the motor parameters into the VFD? I realise you don't have them available but a first estimate would be those for a conventional 5HP motor.

    5) When you say, "it takes the motor a good 5 minutes or so to get up to speed."
    Is that based on tachometer measurements or just the sound it makes?


    What were the steps in your guess work?

    If there is no load on the cutter head even a 3HP motor should be able to accelerate even a large 12" cutter head to full speed with 10 seconds.
    If the motor did not get up to speed within the 10s or shortly there after the VFD should report an overload error of some kind within a few
    seconds.

    Can you put an ammeter on the input and then output side of the VFD and report back what you see start up current and what happens as it gets up to speed.

    My guess is that there is a low current limit in the VFD program that prevents the motor from drawing too much current even under the load of the cutters - 5 minute still sounds like a long time.

    Bob,

    Thank you for the detailed questions.

    I was just about to reply to my original post saying that the motor details are as follows - 3 HP, 'Delta V 415 ', 2870 RPM, 50 Hz. That is all that is available.

    In response to your questions.

    1) Yes, that's correct, and yes, the motor was already in Delta configuration

    2) Yes, it is plugged into a 15A outlet which is on its own dedicated breaker.

    3) It's brand new, Folinn BD600 series, purchased from an ebay seller based in Melbourne, here is the link for the specific one I have purchased.

    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/20178239...252&rmvSB=true

    I have not performed a factory reset. All I have done is confirm / lock in that the max frequency output is 50 Hz.

    4) No, I haven't - I wasn't aware of this but now looking at the manual in the F02 function code area, there are a heap of motor specific parameters that can be entered! I'll put in the ones I know (rated speed, rated voltage, etc.)

    5) Based on the sound

    Even though the motor does not get up to speed, the VFD does not report any errors of any kind.

    I'll do the current measurement (unloaded & loaded) and come back to you.

    Steven.

  6. #140
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
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    Katoomba NSW
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    4,770

    Default

    Check the fan cover for the motor specs. It looks like its against the wall inside the base so not easily accessible. Mirror and a torch maybe.
    You only need to change a few parameters to get the motor to run properly.
    Bob's guess of current limiting sounds good but we will need more info to get it sorted.

    Edit: posted while I was slowly typing.
    It is a 415V Delta connected motor. Your VFD only puts out 220V. You need 415V to drive that one.
    I'm presuming you don't have 415V available so you will need a new motor. I'm a bit surprised that the VFD didn't give some sort of error although it has no way of knowing that the motor is not spinning fast enough so as long as the current limit wasn't exceeded it doesn't care.
    Those were the droids I was looking for.
    https://autoblastgates.com.au

  7. #141
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    Oct 2013
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    Melbourne
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    96

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NCArcher View Post
    Check the fan cover for the motor specs. It looks like its against the wall inside the base so not easily accessible. Mirror and a torch maybe.
    You only need to change a few parameters to get the motor to run properly.
    Bob's guess of current limiting sounds good but we will need more info to get it sorted.

    Edit: posted while I was slowly typing.
    It is a 415V Delta connected motor. Your VFD only puts out 220V. You need 415V to drive that one.
    I'm presuming you don't have 415V available so you will need a new motor. I'm a bit surprised that the VFD didn't give some sort of error although it has no way of knowing that the motor is not spinning fast enough so as long as the current limit wasn't exceeded it doesn't care.
    Thanks!

    So I updated the first 5 or so parameters - RPM, voltage, current, power - and the startup is a lot faster! It's gone from 5 minutes down to 15 seconds or so to get up to 'full speed' (i.e. the point where i can't hear a change in the speed).

    I am not sure now of the cutterhead RPM, and if it's correct. It appears to cut OK and as expected.

    I guess if it really is only 415V, it'll be running a ~ 50% lower speed given it's 3 ph 240V?

    Steven.

  8. #142
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    Oct 2013
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    Melbourne
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NCArcher View Post
    Check the fan cover for the motor specs. It looks like its against the wall inside the base so not easily accessible. Mirror and a torch maybe.
    Here it is.

    2018-04-05 12.21.39.jpg

  9. #143
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    Apr 2014
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    Little River
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevenManos View Post

    I guess if it really is only 415V, it'll be running a ~ 50% lower speed given it's 3 ph 240V?

    Steven.
    The speed is controlled by the frequency and the power available by the voltage.

    You have the motor running at the correct speed but with only about 1/4 of the power available, that is your 3HP motor can only deliver 3/4 HP.

  10. #144
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    Feb 2006
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    Perth
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    NC archer has nalled it. Its a 415V ∆ only motor so it will only be outputting less than half power. (It still runs at full speed but less power)

    The motor needs to be a 240V motor whether it's ∆ or Y. It just so happens that a 415V running in Y can usually be readily converted to ∆ and that automatically makes it a 240V motor

    Sorry there's no way to convert 415V ∆ to 240V ∆ - you will have to find another motor that can be converted.

    If you continue to try and run this motor under even a light load for too long you will burn the motor out.

    Given that there's no need for speed control then I would recommend just buying/acquiring a 3HP single phase motor and keep the VFD for something that can take advantage of the speed control and its other features.
    The mob you bought the Foulin from have reasonable quality cheap motors.

  11. #145
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    Perth
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCArcher View Post
    I'm a bit surprised that the VFD didn't give some sort of error although it has no way of knowing that the motor is not spinning fast enough so as long as the current limit wasn't exceeded it doesn't care.
    Yeah unless the motor and VFD are linked by some sort if sensor it won't know what's going on. I think some sensorless vector drives can pick up if there is an issue like this but that also requires the VFD to be in vector drive mode.

    Depending on how the VFD is configured a current limited VFD may just sits on that limit and report nothing. Usually operating tat the current limit eventually triggers a FD error but it can take some time to do that. On a similar situation using a compressor it was taking a good 2.5 minutes to report an overload error. On another compressor/VFD combo it would only get to ~45 Hz before triggering an overload error.

  12. #146
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    Jan 2015
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    Latrobe Valley
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    160

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Depending on how the VFD is configured a current limited VFD may just sits on that limit and report nothing. Usually operating tat the current limit eventually triggers a FD error but it can take some time to do that.
    Have seen this on more than a few instances where someone has wired the motor in delta but incorrectly configured the VFD output as 415V ("it's 3 phase - wadda ya mean its 240?!?!") The VFD limits the current as per the configured setting to protect the motor but sees no apparent fault as it needs to allow for start up current. As Bob stated the motor will eventually burn out or the VFD will eventually see a fault of overcurrent past the preset time. Least it does that on the Powerflex units we normally see.

  13. #147
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    Feb 2006
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    Perth
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    I finished installing the Powtran Mini on my MW lathe and added some external controls.

    Up until now I had just been using the VFD panel controls but I decided to go remote on this installation.
    One reason was the VFD panel buttons are too small for my fat fingers and a few times (usually when I'm tired) I have hit the wrong button.
    The other reason was related to dirty hands which is inevitable when working on a Metal lathe.
    This resulted in the motor speed pot on the front panel of the VFD picking up some of that finger dirt and over time the motor speed would be tricky to set to a specific speed or it would just wander around (usually to higher speeds) indicating the pot was dirty. I have cleaned the pot maybe 3 times in 7 years and this has stopped the wandering but eventually it got dirty again. This problem can result in serious problems; ie going to full speed when I wanted to run slowly.

    So this is what it looks like now.
    The only difference on the outside of the enclosure are the 2 new knobs and switch near the bottom of the VFD enclosure (ex-B&D power tool box)
    IMG_2925.jpg

    The two knobs are for fine and coarse speed control while the switch is an integral FWD (UP) Stop (centre) and Rev (down)

    The fine and coarse speed control are two 1K (3W) pots connected by two resistors wired in what is called an "H" pattern, which you should be able find on the web, or if you are lazy you can ask and I'll post a circuit diagram. Basically the pots are wired in parallel with the centre taps of each pots soldered to a separate resistor which are then joined together along with the final Tap point that goes back to the Analog input of the VFD. One pot becomes the fine and the other becomes the coarse control.

    The ratio of the smaller value resistor, to the sum of the resistance of the two resistors, determines the sensitivity of the fine pot range relative to the coarse pot range.

    If the coarse pot is changing the output from 0V to 5V and the ratio involved is 10:1 then the '"fine" pot will change the output by ~0.5V.

    The circuit (lower left) is dead simple and being low voltage you can't really damage anything.
    IMG_2924.jpg

    Here's s close up.
    I used a 4.7k and a 560Ω 1W resistor pair and this results in the fine control changing the frequency by a maximum of ~ 11% of the total range of the coarse setting
    IMG_2923.jpg

    An alternative if you like twirling knobs is a multi turn pot.

    Works good!
    Attached Images Attached Images

  14. #148
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    Oct 2013
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    Perth, Australia
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    Thanks Bob! Want to make a remote control panel for my lathe when it gets converted to 3-phase + VFD so this will prove useful.

  15. #149
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    Feb 2006
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    Perth
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    Just got an update from Powtran about their new PI500 series VFDs.

    The specs put it in between the PI9000 and PI160 series VFD.

    The main difference appears to be that the PI500 has the desirable dual line display like the PI9000 which makes it easier to program.

    Current production is focused on 3P input VFDs with only one (a beefy 5.5kW = 7HP) 240V SP input VFD currently available.

    They do expect to produce smaller power 240V SP input units later in the year.

    Price is expected to be about mid way between the equivalent powered PI9000 and PI160 series VFDs.

  16. #150
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    Feb 2006
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    Perth
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    Not much happening in the shed at the moment but I have managed to replace the non-vector drive on the DP with the SAJ vector drive that was on my MW lathe.

    My DP is in the metal work area of my shed, right in front of my metal stock racks so as well as coping some welding and grinding dust when I forget to turn the welding booth extractor on, an unprotected VFD could be hit by a bit of metal so I wanted to better protect the VFD by placing it an enclosure.

    Enclosures have their own problems - if they are too big they can get in the way so that means locating them away from the machine. This is OK on a machine like a metal work lathe that sits permanently in one location but if there is any chance a machine will be moved it's usually better to attached the VFD to the machine. Small enclosures may also need venting. What I was looking round for something that could act as a suitable VFD enclosure rather than have to build one from scratch.

    Under the house I found a 3mm thick ribbed, die cast, Al box that I think came from one of my son's Fancy PC sound systems. The system died or went out of date about 10 years ago and a few years back I stripped out the electronics and ended up just keeping the box. It has only 4 faces and was effectively missing the bottom and the back (or front). So I had to make a baseplate (which I cut out of some 5mm thick scrap Al plate) and a front door which is made from some spare 3mm acrylic.

    Her you can see the box/enclosure (E) mounted alongside the DP.
    Because the enclosure is small relative to the VFD I decided to install a 12V fan in the back of the box to keep the VFD cool.
    The VFD is mounted on the base plate (B) and temporarily laying on top of the DP.
    You should be able to make out the 6 air entry holes that act as intake vents in the bottom of the base plate just above the "B"

    Enclosure1.jpg

    The separate base plate turns out to be very handy because it enables easier pre wiring of the VFD outside the enclosure through proper cable glands, which these small VFD have no provision for in their external cases.

    Here's a shot of the back of the enclosure.
    The black cable is 240V mains coming from the No-volt switch on the DP itself.
    Enclosureback.jpg

    To power the fan I modified a Mains to 12 DC adapter so that it could tuck in behind the VFD as shown below.
    I opened up the adapter and heated up the brass mains plug pins and pushed them through the plastic adapter housing and soldered a mains V cable direct to the board inside the adapter.
    DCsupply.jpg

    And here it is all assembled with the VFD inside.
    The Blue wire is for the controls.
    The fat Orange cable provides VFD power to the motor.
    The red cable is a low V cable that goes down to the floor to a pedal switch.
    complete.jpg

    Here's a close of the whole thing.
    The odd angles in the photo are mostly because the VFD is titled slightly backwards from the base plat. VFD
    complete2.jpg

    As I said I wouldn't bother going to this effort for a regular VFD unless it was located in a problematic area of my shed - the perennial problem of not enough space and too much gear.

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