Saw File a dud, need advice

**D.W.** · 14th July 2018, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

I had missed Bahco at the very top of that LV page. I read all the blurb looking for a brand name mentioned there.....

That's quite pleasing that they've gone with Bahco. They do seem to be the pick of the mass produced saw files. I do wish Bahco would move away from using a black ink logo - it cheapens the brand terribly. As a mark of (at least reasonable) quality they need to be punched. I can't imagine that adds too much to the price - I would have thought it was done when the stamp the blank, but maybe it's a separate process (dunno enough about manu processes). Even so, the black is another process somewhere along the line.

That is not what I said. I was referring to the country of manufacture being embarrassing, not LV embarrassing anyone. I can't fault LV at all - in fact just last week I had brief dialogue with Rob Lee about him setting the world benchmark for service.

As for $8 or $9 files not being worth it - if the file is superior to a Bahco in terms of giving a better gullet shape, and lasting longer then as far as individual punters are concerned then they probably are worth extra money. If an $8 file lasts around (say) 50% longer than a $4 file, and gives better shape then it's probably value for money. As I have highlighted below, it seems you were happy to pay $6-8 in packs of 10 until you found those other drop shippers doing them for less (that's not a criticism, just saying that until just recently $6-8 was fine by you).

Actually, it was Ian who mentioned not slave wages, not pointing that one at you. I did mention $6 to $8, but was intentionally going high when I said that. The place I get drop shipped from, I paid $4.50 for some of the common sizes (like a 6 regular taper or something) and then more, especially for the larger files. I'd expect the small xxslims to be more, but they're not available from the drop shippers.

In terms of shape and lasting, that's the point. There isn't any functionally better shape than bahcos. There are files with finer edges or a little bit more taper, but in practice sharpening (I've had both shapes), it really doesn't matter much. The real issue is that each file out of the box is identical to every other file of that size, and the edges don't break down. If you have those two things, you will be able to touch up large saws in a couple of minutes and get back to work. Less critical for retoothing, etc, where you're just wearing files out left and right and the final shape is determined in the last few strokes.

Even there, I've cut teeth (as large as 2 per inch) with modern bahcos and vintage heavy taper nicholsons and there's no life difference between the two, but the smoothness of the bahcos is a little better from the start.

That's really what my point is. It's a distribution problem. It's definitely one that you have in australia, but if bahco gets to the point where boxes of 4a nd 5 xx slim are available drop shipped in the US, it's a completely closed issue here, thus you'll run into the same static that you had when this topic first came up, of there being an emergency where good files aren't made. There aren't and there won't be files made from anyone sold at street level for 50% more or twice bahco's price here that are worth it.

The sentiment that we need a small manufacturer to bail out the issue over here (because the large companies will just abandon us) is moot, because the only company who has actually been making consistent files for the last 15 years without supply interruptions or major changes is bahco. I think if liogier makes files consistently, first they'll have growing pains duplicating the quality and consistency of bahco, and then after that, they'll realize it's not very profitable. For the sellers selling individual files who could also buy boxes of bahco and split them up, it'll be a non-starter.

Essentially, the situation here with the bahcos is ideal. They're mass produced, consistent and inexpensive. On top of that, they've outlasted (for me) many of the finer made vintage files that have very crisp edges, and they are at least as good or better than Nicholson's recent american efforts before shipping off to mexico. In my opinion, you have a distribution problem in Australia. They have it in Europe. The idea that a european buyer would pay 11 pounds for a file that is $5 here in the states is bizarre when they're geographically very close to europe. The VAT is one excuse, but the other is just low demand and/or greed.

We could get stung in the US by bahco/snap on realizing that there is more money to be made with those files in boxes of 10, but in the last 5 or so years, there's actually been competition from drop shippers, it appears, and the result is just looking around now is even lower prices. From a user standpoint, when I get a box of 10 of them, it's a thing of joy. The ends are a bit chubby, but I can look at the files and they're all identical and the thought of "i wonder if this will be a good box" never crosses my mind. I've never had a bad one, even when I was biased and was sure that my initial experience must be wrong ("a file made in portugal can't possibly be better than an american file, can it? there must be circumstances that made the american file fare worse").

what really surprises me about taper files in general and their constant supply from a gigantic conglomerate is how is there enough demand for them to be available in the first place? There's clearly not much demand for 4xx and 5xx, or they'd be easier to find. Other than the small files, unless I start restoring saws again (something i'm not inclined to do), I've got the files for 12 point and larger to work entirely by hand for the next 30 years (or until my boxes somehow get wet - hopefully not). Even as much as I rip by hand, I could probably touch up a rip saw (if stinginess is important) a dozen times with a single file. I touch up rip saws once per large project , and perhaps set them once every five touch ups. With care, one needs to do little more - there is no situation where you have to joint teeth all the time and remove a lot of metal, that only occurs when someone lazily touched up a saw.

At any rate, It's unfortunate that the distribution problem pretty much leaves europe and australia out. The easiest way to get a good supply of files would probably be to see if you could get them and distribute them from Bahco.

I have a feeling that Liogier will be inconsistent (if I was betting at Lloyds) with good intentions, which woodworkers will tolerate for a little while, and then they'll just decide not to stay in that line of business. There was a very knowledgable toolmaker over here who identified some problems they have with efficiency and man hours in getting their rasp blanks made, and they were not receptive to advice that could make them more competitive without any negative effect on quality. That kind of attitude doesn't usually lead to better things for customers. Being dismissive of advice is a very western european thing, though. We see it here all the time. American companies find out what large customers want. They make that. European companies tell american customers what they should want, and then refuse to adjust their designs for customers. When you do that to a customer like a mining company (who actually knows what they want), the customers just go to a company who will make what they're asking for.

**D.W.** · 14th July 2018, 02:11 AM

A little bit of looking around revises some of my 5 years overmature knowledge.

Some of the ecommerce sites have brought the bahcos to the UK for a lower price now (5-8 pounds).

The only sites that claim to have the 5xx slim in quantity right now are in australia (for about $10 or $11 AUD).

Many of the sites that link 5xx slim searches on google (4-188-05-2-0), which sharpen anything that I use on a regular basis (down to about 15 tpi) actually are 4-186-05-2-0 files. Those are x slim taper (which only will work down to about 12 or so).

One has to be careful ordering if they do.

There are no 4 xx slim bahcos (which would be nice).

Getting small xx slim files in the united states is a pain in the rear. 6" sizes are common (including bahco), easy to find, and inexpensive. most of the industrial suppliers carry 4 and 5 x slim files (like mcmaster carr), but they don't guarantee any brand, let alone a country of origin.

I'd be curious to find out who is actually using all of these taper saw files in sizes larger than 4xx and 5xx, because the woodworking hobby and the professional hand tool users couldn't possibly support manufacturing, but there may be an industrial or machinist use for those files.

As far as other files go, if you want to spend the moon, you can still get swiss files (if you're careful). I'd assume actual swiss made needle file sets are at least $200. George sold me a set of austrian files from the 1920s for $20. They are superb, but the difference between their precision in manufacture would be appreciated only by jewelers, just as the taper on the end of a bahco file can be a point of discussion, but it really makes no practical difference for a sharpener.

The other items (sculptors tools, fine machining files that are $30 each, etc, I doubt those are under threat of being unavailable in western manufacture. The files that are half that cost (needle sets of $125, etc), I'm sure those are just opportune harvesting - that is, making decent sets in india that are decent but not good, and making a huge margin that probably isn't there on a $210 set of needle files from switzerland or japan).

**FenceFurniture** · 14th July 2018, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by D.W.

I do think the bottom line here is that the only filemaker who is making files that are as good as anything (bahco)

Originally Posted by D.W.

There isn't any functionally better shape than bahcos. There are files with finer edges or a little bit more taper, but in practice sharpening (I've had both shapes), it really doesn't matter much.

Originally Posted by IanW

Don't get too excited, Bahco haven't been any better than Pferd or any of the other supposed 'European' files, in my hands.

Originally Posted by IanW

My gripe with the small sample of Bahcos I've used (couple of dozen, maybe a bit more), is that they tend to be overly brittle.

Apparently not everyone is as big a fan of Bahco. You like the gullet shape produced, some others do not. Perhaps they are better or more experienced at filing?

Between posts #8 and #47 there are 72 mentions of Bahco. Of those 72 mentions, 15 are by other people (often in response to your posts), 8 are from quoting your posts, and the other 49 mentions are directly from D.W. TBH, it's starting sound like you may have skin in the Bahco game.

I think we get the point that you're a massive "B" fan. They are very difficult to obtain here, so there is probably little point in continuing to promote them.

If you want to see just how prolific your mentions of the brand are then a simple ctrl f & "Bahco" will highlight that). There are 3 posts alone that have 9, 9, 11 mentions. 29 mentions in 3 posts. A reasonable person could regard that as spamming. Alright already - we get it - but we don't.

So apart from that you don't seem to understand that what is easily available in the USA is utterly irrelevant to us. I think it would be more helpful if we concentrated on trying to solve the problem here rather than spruiking brands that are as common as muck in the USA.

As for the following quoted theme that you keep bringing up (3x), what on earth has that got to do with
A) the OP?
B) the situation in Australia?

Originally Posted by D.W.

I'd expect this topic to meet a familiar thud if it's brought up again in the states, but it seems to be a real problem there.
In terms of any other ventures (like selling a $15 saw file in the US), I wouldn't bother. It'll draw heat on the forums and you will sell little, because we just don't have the problem the europe and Au have in terms of supply at this point.

Originally Posted by D.W.

in the US, it's a completely closed issue here, thus you'll run into the same static that you had when this topic first came up, of there being an emergency where good files aren't made. There aren't and there won't be files made from anyone sold at street level for 50% more or twice bahco's price here that are worth it.

Originally Posted by D.W.

The sentiment that we need a small manufacturer to bail out the issue over here (because the large companies will just abandon us) is moot, because the only company who has actually been making consistent files for the last 15 years without supply interruptions or major changes is bahco. I think if liogier makes files consistently, first they'll have growing pains duplicating the quality and consistency of bahco, and then after that, they'll realize it's not very profitable. For the sellers selling individual files who could also buy boxes of bahco and split them up, it'll be a non-starter.

**FenceFurniture** · 16th July 2018, 10:59 AM

Working out what is what in the Bahco range, and what might be the appropriate size.

Decoding Bahco 4-188-05-2-0
Don't know what the 4 is
-188 is the taper 183 is reg, 186 is slim, 187 Extra Slim, 188 Double Extra Slim
-05 length in inches
-2 I think is second cut
-0 is without handle, -2 is with Ergo handle

Imported into Australia:
forgetting Reg Tapers, there are (all in boxes of 10 - but retailers may split them I suppose)
Slims in 4,4½,5,6,7,8 inch
Extra Slims in 4,4½,5,6, inch
Double Extra Slims in 5,6 inch

Originally Posted by D.W.

Many of the sites that link 5xx slim searches on google (4-188-05-2-0), which sharpen anything that I use on a regular basis (down to about 15 tpi) actually are 4-186-05-2-0 files. Those are x slim taper (which only will work down to about 12 or so).

There is something in there I can't quite get hold of. I think it says that 188 advertised or linked actually go to 186, but they are not X Slims - 187 is XS

So we know that the only range that is relevant to saw is 187 and 188 and preferably with a -0 on the end. Lengths of interest are 4",5" and 6". That is
4-187-04-2-0 (4" X)
4-187-05-2-0 (5" X)
4-187-06-2-0 (6" X)
4-188-05-2-0 (5" XX)
4-188-06-2-0 (6" XX)

Originally Posted by D.W.

abolox tools (haven't used)
mltools (haven't used)
auto tool world (I've bought about 60 files from them - they're just a drop shipper)

I mention the other two because they have a lower price than auto tool world (for example, 6" slim taper are about $35-$40 per box of ten)

PRICES ARE USD (bold is the best price for smallest qty)
MLTOOLS only have:
4-187-04-2-0 (4" X) for $36.00 box of 10
4-187-06-2-0 (6" X) for $40.80 box of 10
4-188-06-2-0 (6" XX) for $61.68 box of 10

ABOLOX have:
4-187-04-2-0 (4" X) for $3.44 each (and the checkout seems to tolerate a single file purchase)
4-187-06-2-0 (6" X) for $3.89 each
4-188-06-2-0 (6" XX) for $5.90 each

AUTO TOOL WORLD have:
4-187-04-2-0 (4" X) for $47.30 box of 10
4-187-06-2-0 (6" X) for $53.20 box of 10
4-188-06-2-0 (6" XX) for $74.80 box of 10

LEE VALLEY have:
4-187-06-2-0 (6" X) for $6.80 each
4-188-05-2-0 (5" XX) for $9.80 each
4-188-06-2-0 (6" XX) for $9.80 each

**jmk89** · 16th July 2018, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

Brett, why don't you ask Stu to see what he can do. Failing that and no promises but a cousin of mine has recently returned to Oz after living in Japan for about thirty years so we may be able to ask him for help with the language problems.

I was about to make the same suggestion.

**FenceFurniture** · 16th July 2018, 12:38 PM

I have already sent him an email some days ago, but no response. I'm not even sure how active his site is atm - I think some people have said that something seems to be up?

**windbreaker** · 16th July 2018, 05:23 PM

Without trying to hijack this thread I do have a question about files. Are all triangular files saw files or are they different in some way? I have a lot of small files and was wondering as I am going to be sharpening some saws soon.

**FenceFurniture** · 16th July 2018, 05:35 PM

Saw files are single cut - that means the teeth in the face of the file are only cut in one direction. Other triangular files can be cut in two directions - that means the teeth are criss crossed over each other, and that results in a lees smooth finish. These are usually classified as Engineers or Machinists files.

There area number of other differences, but the single cut teeth is the best clue.

Here is a single cut saw file:

An Eng file will have another set of cuts going across the first set of cuts.

**gerrit** · 16th July 2018, 08:39 PM

Oberg still being made? Rummaged through some boxes this evening and found a box full of them. double enders two sizes and they come with loose
wooden handles. Used to use them to sharpen my saws before the circular saws came in. Oops that is a few moons ago.

**FenceFurniture** · 16th July 2018, 08:52 PM

No, bought out by Bahco a while back (so owned by Snap On). Some of the Bahco files (not saw) are still called Oberg. The Bahco needle files have (or used to 35 years ago) Oberg stamped in them, but they didn't get much of a rating in the testing done back then.

**gerrit** · 16th July 2018, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

No, bought out by Bahco a while back (so owned by Snap On). Some of the Bahco files (not saw) are still called Oberg. The Bahco needle files have (or used to 35 years ago) Oberg stamped in them, but they didn't get much of a rating in the testing done back then.

Thank you for clarifying. Those files are most likely 45yrs old no problems sharpening my old Disstons and Sandvicks at the time. Still have them somewhere. Note a lot of my old stuff has still Berg stamped on it, became Bahco later. Cheers Gary.

**FenceFurniture** · 16th July 2018, 10:08 PM

TBH, with the current parlous state of saw files, the older the better...as long as they haven't been used up.

**D.W.** · 17th July 2018, 12:59 AM

Thanks for those links, FF. I just ordered the 4x slims. I don't know that without seeing that list that I consciously ever noticed the price difference in the xx slim vs. the slims (I have bought files that were as much as $75/box of ten, but they were big files).

Mex nicholsons are about $45 for the 4xx slims. Not a great option, but you can get your money's worth out of them compared to needle files (unlike some of the offerings from "grobet usa", etc) and throw away the odd banana here or there. I hate to say it, but the most recent nicholson files that I've gotten have been almost as good as the american nicholson files of a decade ago (they may now be as good - perhaps not as clean of blanks, but in number of saws sharpened and actual functional sharpness of the saws).

(re: the boxes of ten bahco - they may be available individually, or someone may have put up an internet store front referencing part numbers. Autotoolworld started by offering catalog numbers, the order for individual files went through, and then several days later, you'd get an email - after their order was submitted to williams - that files were only available in boxes of ten. If a retailer is willing to stock the files and split them into individual files as LV or Blackburn do, individual files are available, but not from Williams tool. I'd say that someone could try it and let us know how it works from the other retailers, but not if you're in australia, of course.).

**D.W.** · 17th July 2018, 01:12 AM

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

I have already sent him an email some days ago, but no response. I'm not even sure how active his site is atm - I think some people have said that something seems to be up?

I talked to Stu relatively recently. He is processing orders made through his site, but I don't think he'd be receptive to anything one-off right now. He's busy, and though he might not say it outright, he's still grieving the loss of his mother.

**Huon pine fan** · 22nd July 2018, 06:30 PM

Based on some of the replies to this thread I am thinking that I have struck gold!

Thread: Saw File a dud, need advice

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Working out what is what in the Bahco range, and what might be the appropriate size.

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