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  1. #31
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    I was thinking the other day, when will Paul be cutting the saw slot.
    Is he the kind of man that is brave enough to leave it till the last minute.
    My self, I’m in Ian’s camp on this one, I get the slot in even before I drill out the centre holes that we all use to hog out the waste.

    I’ve learned this the hard way[emoji849]
    It’s such a critical thing.

    Paul and on which camp are you with in regard to cutting the slot do you free hand it,do you lay the saw on its side against another saw packed to the right height and start it that way,do use a slitting saw in a drill press/router to start the slit?

    Inquiring minds are eager to see.


    Cheers Matt.
    Ian Paul and how is the weather up in the lovely tropics today☃️.

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  3. #32
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    Paul, to my untrained eye, all those handles look like MDF to me!

  4. #33
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    Matt

    I follow the Rob Streeper freehand method using a series of saws. Firstly a Gent's saw with no set to tooth depth, then with a fine Gent's saw set lightly a little deeper, say 5mm. This cut is followed all round and then finally cut through to full depth with another back saw. Then it is opened out if necessary to suit the plate thickness.

    Tropics are about 32degs (Darwin). Where we are, approx. 3307.4Km from Darwin, which is almost twice as far away as you are from Millmerran, very sub tropical. Currently 13 degs and falling!

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  5. #34
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    When making a saw, putting the blade kerf in the handle can be a challenge if you don't have a decent saw already! The kerf doesn't have to be a tight fit, the bolts can easily close a small gap, but it does need to be pretty straight, or the plate will warp a bit when you tighten the bolts and put a twist in the tooth line. A small deviation doesn't affect the saw's performance in any way, but a big one may do. It's very common to see this with all brands of backsaws (I had a very well-known brand of saw in my hands just yesterday, & it had a little twist in the tail). If you sight along the blade of any old saw, you will find at least 1 in every 10 that go off a bit at the handle end. I don't think it's necessarily due to the kerf having been cut crookedly in the factory, but happens later in life due to unpredictable wood movement & slight twisting of the cheeks. Which is a good reason to be very cautious about selecting highly figured woods for handles.....

    One other problem you strike is that the back of the kerf is seldom straight-bottomed, but ends in a curve to accommodate the back of the blade, so I've made several small knife-like saws for cutting out this curve. These have rounded ends & cut on the pull stroke: handle slotting saws.jpg

    Having accumulated lots of scraps, I've made one for each of the common plate sizes. They have zero set, & are very short, so they can't cut the whole kerf, but are certainly handy for the finishing touches.

    Cheers,
    IW

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    Hey, hey!! What's with the hang hole? Isn't that something we berate?

    Perhaps you really were recycling and using up every last scrap of material and that is the bolt hole end .

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Hey, hey!! What's with the hang hole? Isn't that something we berate?

    Perhaps you really were recycling and using up every last scrap of material and that is the bolt hole end .

    Regards
    Paul
    And he hasn’t clocked the screws ta ta ta [emoji849].

  8. #37
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    There is one part of this build that is complete provided you are not looking at the big picture. It is the saw screws. In 1797 the Glover patent was still over ninety years away so the saw screws were naturally the old split nut style, but not only that they were not the standard sizes used by the "normal" makers of saws that are a mere 100 or 150 years old. Ian Wilkie heard that I was going to fudge something out of my stocks of screws and announced that this wasn't really good enough and if I would supply him with some measurements he would cobble something up on his lathe.

    This was a most attractive offer and we came to an arrangement that I believe was distinctly in my favour, but perhaps you could just keep that between ourselves .

    Basically we only needed two sizes of saw screw as the Kenyon saws did not feature a medallion and this is what we, I mean Ian, came up with:

    P1040179 (Medium).JPGP1040180 (Medium).JPGP1040181 (Medium).JPG

    They are beautifully made and brass is such a nice material that I have posted them full size as I think they deserve that. I have enough for six saws and that was the original intention. However, at some point I decided to included the short squat panel saw to compliment the rip panel saw I already had. I will have to make another arrangement for that and in any event I will bring it more in line with the rip saw in that it will have a Warranted Superior medallion. It will also be a little test for me that I can be about one seventh self sufficient in such matters!

    Working tonight and a busy weekend of family commitments may mean minimal time for saw building. If I can escape for a few moments there may be some more progress, but I am not making any promises I can't keep. Not much of the political animal in me: If there was, I would be announcing that the set would be finished by the weekend and it would have cost less than a hard tooth saw from the hardware store.

    Thanks Ian for making up these saw screws. It's just a shame I have to bury them in timber so that at least part of their beauty will be obscured for evermore.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Hey, hey!! What's with the hang hole? Isn't that something we berate? ......
    'Tain't a 'anging 'ole, Paul, it's just that indeed I was using up my scraps to the limit. It's the trimming off a Bunnies scraper blade - they have four hols along one edge for attaching them in the handle/holder thingy. It was probably a bit left after cutting out a halfback saw - might even be a bit off the plate that made the saw you own!

    Matt, ''clocking" screws is to me, one of the least comprehensible habits of the overly-fussy. Sorry to disillusion you, but I guess it's because none of my early teachers/mentors thought it necessary either. I fail to see the point in either over-tightening or slackening-off a screws to make their slots align. Must be the biologist in me, but I actually prefer the randomly-oriented style.....

    Paul, I wouldn't worry about burying the shanks of the brass bolts -I reckon they'll look just dandy when screwed in & flushed with the wood!

    Cheers,
    IW

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    'Tain't a 'anging 'ole, Paul, it's just that indeed I was using up my scraps to the limit. It's the trimming off a Bunnies scraper blade - they have four hols along one edge for attaching them in the handle/holder thingy. It was probably a bit left after cutting out a halfback saw - might even be a bit off the plate that made the saw you own!

    Matt, ''clocking" screws is to me, one of the least comprehensible habits of the overly-fussy. Sorry to disillusion you, but I guess it's because none of my early teachers/mentors thought it necessary either. I fail to see the point in either over-tightening or slackening-off a screws to make their slots align. Must be the biologist in me, but I actually prefer the randomly-oriented style.....

    Paul, I wouldn't worry about burying the shanks of the brass bolts -I reckon they'll look just dandy when screwed in & flushed with the wood!

    Cheers,
    Ian

    I thought that was the case with the "hang hole," but I was feeling mischievous .

    When posting pix of medallions I try to orientate to read in the right plane (perhaps I should just put them in saws!) so as to avoid Matt's critical tongue in this regard.

    If you are OK with you workmanship being buried I will surely do it.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  11. #40
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    Well I did get a little work done on the handles despite my doubts.

    In case people have raised their eyebrows over my MDF templates, they serve a dual function. Firstly they are a pattern should I wish to make another handle the same at a later date. Secondly, after cutting out the rough shape with a jigsaw (I will have to set up the bandsaw to do this one day, but that may be for retirement) I refine the shape using a router and flush trimming bits. I used to use a Makita Laminate trimmer, but these hardwoods were a little bit of an ask for it and I had hankered after the DeWalt dual purpose router, which I acquired at the end of last year. However, this is the first time I have used it in the fixed base mode and the first time for the handle shaping process.

    P1040187 (Medium).JPG

    Really it is only a little larger than a laminate trimmer, although the 900W motor has extra grunt compared to my old Makita and the picture makes it look much bigger than it really is. I can hold it comfortably in one hand for this work particularly as it has an extended clear base, which was very useful for this project. The saw handles do not give much of a flat platform to hold the router against.

    So this is how they trimmed up. I did it in three passes. The first two were with a short, top bearing bit and for the third pass I flipped the handle and used a bottom bearing bit which ran on the part I had just cut. You can see the shorter top bearing cutter to the right of the router above.

    This is how they stacked up .

    P1040184 (Medium).JPG

    The guide bearing does not permit following of the more intricate parts so they are then cut with a bow saw and rasp.


    P1040185 (Medium).JPG These are some of the rasps I used. P1040190 (Medium).JPG Most are Liogiers except the two on the left. One hand stitched Tome Fetiera and one useless Nicholson. I didn't actually use the Nicholson. One of the reasons I cut out with the router instead of all by hand is that the level of rasping I would have to do with these woods would blunt the rasps before very long and while they are excellent quality, they are not cheap. As it is I will need some more soon (Where's FenceFurniture when you want him?)

    Of course, there were a couple of issues with the handles. The Ironbark handle had a hidden hole, which only revealed itself at this point

    P1040189 (Medium).JPG

    and I was not careful enough with the Gidgee handle and whipped off a corner. I will have to see what I can do about that . The Gidgee is too hard to come by to discard it for such a trifle .

    P1040191 (Medium).JPG

    They are starting to look a bit better here

    P1040192 (Medium).JPG

    and here the templates have been removed and a tracing drawn in for the lambs tongue. They are starting to look like handles, but a bit blocky at the moment:

    P1040194 (Medium).JPG

    Next step as far as the handles are concerned will be to mark and scribe the kerfs for the blades. I will have to decide exactly where the blades are going to sit in relation to the handles before I do too much cutting.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  12. #41
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    Paul,
    I’m really glad to see some progress finally bearing down on the task at hand[emoji6].

    Also, so now I won’t have to take cheap junior shots at Ian.
    Especially shall I say the young one here.
    Especially as we both know his stuff is pretty awesome and I don’t want to sound like a smart whippet snippet [emoji57].
    Also because I agree with Ian’s remarks to a degree.


    So down to a serious question.

    How were the saw handle blanks held while you were using the trim router.
    I’ve used a trim router my self in the past, and use double sided tape(carpet tape),on to a sacrificial mdf base,ie a template on top as you have done and a smaller ruff piece of mdf under the saw handle.
    For a similar job but not a saw handle, but I will be on the next one, and don’t ask me when that will be because I have know idea[emoji853][emoji853][emoji853].
    But Im just curious too see, if you come up with a more cunning plan.

    Also what finish are you planning to use on the handles especially considering the heritage and age of the original Seatons saws.


    Cheers Matt.

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    .......Of course, there were a couple of issues with the handles. The Ironbark handle had a hidden hole, which only revealed itself at this point......

    ........and I was not careful enough with the Gidgee handle and whipped off a corner. I will have to see what I can do about that . The Gidgee is too hard to come by to discard it for such a trifle .

    P1040191 (Medium).JPG .......
    Yup, I've just had a slew of those little irritations myself, Paul. If I were making the Ironbark handle for myself I would probably accept the flaw since it's virtually out of sight, but if it was a 'for sale' saw it would be in the kindling wood pile, now.

    Like you, I'd be more reluctant to bin the Gidgee & would be looking for some satisfactory solution to that little disaster. If it was only a small corner that had parted ways, you could have just re-shaped the 'wave' a bit 'til it disappeared (done that before today!) but this one is well beyond such an easy fix, obviously. If it's a clean break & the chip hasn't lost itself in the shavings pile, you might be able to glue it back invisibly - I've managed that before, too, but if it's a messy break with lots of splits, it's nigh-on impossible to get a satisfactory join. In that case, the only way to salvage the day that I could think up is to cut a clean surface & glue on a matching piece. All extra work - you've got enough to do there without extra annoyances & frustrations!

    I don't envy you having to shape the lambs' tongues in Gidgee & Ironbark; that seems like a rather fraught procedure, in wood that loves to split at the slightest provocation! But then, you relish a challenge.....

    Cheers,
    IW

  14. #43
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    Ian

    You're pretty much on the money with all your comments and thy echo my own conclusions. Because these will not be for sale I have some degree of leeway. You have also hit on one of the most difficult aspects in that although I absolutely love the lambs tongue style carving the harder timbers can be a battle. Any harder and I would be email Michael Angelo for some red hot tips. I may yet have to break out a cold chisel.

    Matt

    Because the jigsaw did most of the work and the router is only taking a skim off the edge and not very deep (remember three passes) I just place the handle on a non slip mat. The surface of the bench is quite rough and the handles stay in place on the mat well. I support the handle with one hand and hold the router with the other. I keep turning the handle to optimise the position rather than travelling the whole way around at one go. It may sound a trifle unsafe, but it isn't: I should offer a word of warning that I would not do this if if I was routing on the top surface as there would be the potential for the router to "skip" with rather unpleasant consequences.

    The finish will be a combination of varnish and oil. I may have to experiment a little bearing in mind an "aged" look could be appropriate here. By aged I mean darkened rather than distressed. I will probably be the distressed component.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  15. #44
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    Paul,

    Could you just cut the offending piece clean off were marked in red giving you a clean slate so to speak.
    Then glue in another piece on top I would think the glue line could also most disappear if the matting surfaces are fairly true.


    Cheers Matt,

  16. #45
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    Matt

    I am leaning towards exactly that at the moment. Particularly with the dark timber it may be close to invisible

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

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